Idea to Improve Ski Bowl Usage at Gore

snoloco wrote

Look at this and tell me that they don't need to upgrade snowmaking over there.

I don't remember anyone saying this. At least I didn't. The key word is "need."

I'm guessing that many feel like hey when snowmaking comes, cool. Until then "Ski it if you can." It is amazing how great the trees are down there. While the bowl gets about the same snow as Hickory, it's much less rocky.  And Moxham, a trail without any dynamite, sweeps and swoops, could be my favorite blue anywhere.

I'm certain adding snowmaking is ORDAs goal and parts of the Bowl already have it.  It's that one thing at a time again.

Sounds like we agree, snowmaking takes priority over lodge improvements, rentals, magic carpet etc.

I can't remember if Moxham or Peaceful Valley or what has guns over there does anyone know?  I do know the pumping capacity at the bowl is huge, as that is how they fill the res.

PeeTex wrote

But let's be clear - my vote is for less snow making rather than more, but I am not the general population.

DOH! My bad somebody said it.  But it sound like P doesn't really ski Gore much or ever.

Personally I'd love to see them be able to cover the 46er headwall. It's really steep, and has been blasted (too bad IMO) and it's really rocky. The pitch is second only to Rumor and will never be open for more than a few hours each season (if that) will some kind of any icy base.  Amazing that it was served by a rope tow back in the day.

Other than that I think you've got to have one other way down (they do).  I'd personally be fine if they left it at that.

My guess it that after the high peaks is done, they'll finish the plumbing in the bowl.

Sno... if you were Gore's GM and you could do ONE improvement per year what would be your order of ops starting LAST YEAR, so you could change doing the AE first if you want.

LOL I guess if one improvement per year is not acceptable you can choose to resign.

snoloco wrote

All I'm saying is that it needs to be open consistently on a full time basis.  None of this "oh it will open when mother nature gives us the goods" nonsense.  It would be nice to have every lift a high speed, but it obviously isn't practical due to that small money thing.  No ski area in the east should need anything from nature to open an entire section of a mountain.  To me, sufficient snowmaking capacity means having the ability to open every section of the mountain by 12/26 in all but the worst Decembers with no natural snow at all.  No vacationer wants to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars and find out that the mountain they went to is half open.  I can remember the Ski Bowl's opening days for every season since it first opened.

10-11:  January 28 (first opening, I believe due to a snowstorm)
11-12:  3/3 (only open 2 days entire season)
12-13:  12/28 (big snowstorm)
13-14:  2/8 (only opening on snowmaking I can think of)

None of these days are acceptable opening dates for a large chunk of the mountain.  Look at this and tell me that they don't need to upgrade snowmaking over there.

 sno lives in todays immediate consumption- gratification,ultra pasteurized,marketing driven ,destination specific world of the masses.thankfully there still is the ski bowl ,hickory, mrg, magic, snow bowl, snow ridge for others

freeheeln wrote

snoloco wrote

I have said in the past how the Ski Bowl expansion has not exactly worked out well.  I think that they would have been better off not building it and focusing on improving the rest of the mountain first

disagree totally. the ski bowl represents the history of Gore , a throw back to the origins of lift served skiing. it has character , a vibe that hsq's cannot replicate. sno when you realize that skiing isn't just about quantity ,but quality ,comraderie ,friendships, then maybe along with your passion for skiing you will too will have soul

Can I get an amen brother

snoloco wrote

No ski area in the east should need anything from nature to open an entire section of a mountain.  To me, sufficient snowmaking capacity means having the ability to open every section of the mountain by 12/26 in all but the worst Decembers with no natural snow at all.  

So you'd put a couple fan guns on top of the slides? Me too!


Honestly, repeat after me a thousand times: Xmas is early-season skiing. I want to save you some disappointment.

Having skied many years, I can promise that the only thing you can count on for 12/26 is a 60% chance of pissing rain, and those guns aren't going to be of much use in the monsoon. Even at Mountain Creek.

I know we are not on the same page with snowmaking, lifts, allocation of terrain, etc, but I also don't think snowmaking on Peaceful Valley or the Eagles Nest Crossover would be the worst thing.

snoloco wrote

 Ever skied a mountain that wasn't fully open by Christmas?  I have done it at Mountain Creek and trust me, it is a mess.  I mean that there are 20-25 minute waits on the major lifts that are open.  Same thing has happened at Windham when they didn't have East Peak open for Christmas.  That was a major liftline disaster as well.

Sorry, I skipped a page of reading before answering, even though I answered you anyway.

This will happen to you many times if you ski the east. Like I was saying, Christmas is early.

The town of Johnsberg should adopt the place.  Cover it head to toe with snowmaking.  Attract beginners and the local community and turn it into a hub in the winter.  Keep the customers close to town.   They could ski, tube and then catch the shuttle to the hot cocoa store.

Harvey wrote

Sno... if you were Gore's GM and you could do ONE improvement per year what would be your order of ops starting LAST YEAR, so you could change doing the AE first if you want.

I would have built the AE2 as they did.  I think that getting rid of the rickety, old, unreliable AE1 to make way for a shiny new HSQ that is faster and luxurious just like the BRQ was a great decision.  The catch is that I would not have built the Ski Bowl until the AE2, High Peaks Chair were done and Burnt Ridge was fully developed.  After that, I would have built the Ski Bowl and done it with snowmaking capacity on at least some of the trails right away to allow it to open reliably, even before it was fully developed.  That is what was done on Burnt Ridge.  They built the lift and cut 2 trails right away.  Those are Echo and Sagamore.  Echo had snowmaking right away and Burnt Ridge opened before Christmas its first season.  Sagamore got snowmaking a couple years later and Barkeater is scheduled to be cut into a trail.  I think that the Burnt Ridge expansion was the best executed of the 3 recent ORDA expansions and should remain a model for all future expansions.  It has been the only one that has been open consistently.  Lookout Mountain requires a crazy amount of snow to get open, so it opens late and closes if there is a thaw.  The Ski Bowl is at low elevation and opened with no snowmaking at all.  I think that Peaceful Valley, Oak Ridge, and Eagle's Nest got snowmaking in 11-12, but it was never used.  They used it in 12-13 which I think was the Ski Bowl's best year.  Pipeline did not have snowmaking and that is what limited it because if there is no snowmaking there, no one can access the Ski Bowl.  Pipeline has snowmaking this year, so the Ski Bowl should be open more consistently, but still, 4 years is a bit long to wait for snowmaking capacity to allow it to consistently open.

I agree with Sno that Gore's snowmaking capacity needs to catch up to the expanded terrain.  I'm confident that it eventually will, but it'll undoubtedly take several years.

I'm a big fan of the Ski Bowl - I'd like it to remain exactly the way it is right now, just open for more of the winter.  The issue right now is that the Ski Bowl is at the bottom of the snowmaking priority list, and it takes a long time for the snowmaking crews to work through that list.  Gore's snowmaking capacity is 30 acre/feet per day.  At 400+ acres, that means it takes over 13 days to cover the mountain with 1 foot of snow.  Most large eastern resorts can cover their snowmaking terrain with a foot of snow in around 7 days (Killington is 7.5 days, Hunter is an incredibly fast 4).  Gore's been making progress by adding low-E guns (which allow them to utilize water pumping capacity more fully), so that 30 acre/feet per day number has been creeping up.  But at some point a major investment in pumping and/or air compressor capacity will be needed to get Gore's coverage factor down to the 7 day range.

Adk Jeff wrote

But at some point a major investment in pumping and/or air compressor capacity will be needed to get Gore's coverage factor down to the 7 day range.

Yep.

Johnsburg owns much of the Ski Bowl but I doubt would have the cash to put in more or redundant snowmaking.  I guess they could rent the current infrastructure which is significant.

Sno your plan makes sense, for a private business, but the reality was that BR wouldn't have happened without the word "interconnect."  

Personally I will shed a tear when BR is "fully developed."  It's awesome an unique, and eventually will be just another trail pod. (Can you say Lower Steilhang?)

I was thinking about the expansion that resulted in the Straightbrook pod.  I think it was third or fourth:

1) East Side
2) North Side
3) Straightbrook
4) Darkside

...or maybe it was the other way around with Dark Side and Straightbrook reversed.

Anyway you MIGHT say it was nuts to put in Straightbrook and Darkside first. All that fodder for the flat spot whiners on Cloud.  Topridge would have made more sense.  But there was political will to develop the SUMMIT of Gore. Go to the top!

Sno... would you have said no to that money?

I'll never agree with you on this stuff bud.  But I have faith in you. Not many people are willing to take it all back. I'm holding out hope that someday you will.


BTW I say compressors (and money of course) are limiting factors at this moment, more than pumping.

snoloco wrote

I have said in the past how the Ski Bowl expansion has not exactly worked out well.  I think that they would have been better off not building it and focusing on improving the rest of the mountain first, but we have it, so we may as well think of ways to use it... Seems like a good idea to me.

1. GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY! MAKE SOME FRIENDS!

2. I would love to see snowmaking on the 46er Headwall. Otherwise, leave the ski bowl as is.

3. Stay away from the yurt, people. It is full of dangerous, unsavory, bearded types and mice.

campgottagopee wrote

freeheeln wrote

snoloco wrote

I have said in the past how the Ski Bowl expansion has not exactly worked out well.  I think that they would have been better off not building it and focusing on improving the rest of the mountain first

disagree totally. the ski bowl represents the history of Gore , a throw back to the origins of lift served skiing. it has character , a vibe that hsq's cannot replicate. sno when you realize that skiing isn't just about quantity ,but quality ,comraderie ,friendships, then maybe along with your passion for skiing you will too will have soul

Can I get an amen brother

Agree.  It's not always about getting up the mountain as quickly as possible.  Last season on our second visit to Gore my favorite memory is me and my three girls taking the High Peaks double up through the pines as snow softly fell.  Sure we stopped a couple of times but it was like taking a ride through the treetops.  It's all part of the package.

Petronio

I'm surprised that the all-but-dead proposed Front Street development has only been mentioned once in this thread. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if Gov. Pataki (and former Rep. John Sweeney) hadn't pushed the interconnect with an eye towards that development.

Nothing Sno' proposes is possible without money, and not one red cent will be provided by the Town of Johnsburg.

Spongeworthy wrote

I'm surprised that the all-but-dead proposed Front Street development has only been mentioned once in this thread.

I'm surprised no one mentioned a waffle hut yet.

Oh that being the hut with the webcam on it?  Heard the helicopters are installing this week.  Maybe mixing stories.

YUKON CORNELIUS wrote

snoloco wrote

I have said in the past how the Ski Bowl expansion has not exactly worked out well.  I think that they would have been better off not building it and focusing on improving the rest of the mountain first, but we have it, so we may as well think of ways to use it... Seems like a good idea to me.

1. GO OUTSIDE AND PLAY! MAKE SOME FRIENDS!

2. I would love to see snowmaking on the 46er Headwall. Otherwise, leave the ski bowl as is.

3. Stay away from the yurt, people. It is full of dangerous, unsavory, bearded types and mice.

i had a mouse in my boot bag. i also have seen dangerous, unsavory, bearded mice in the yurt.

Hoser wrote

Oh that being the hut with the webcam on it?  Heard the helicopters are installing this week.  Maybe mixing stories.

Yes, and a USB plug in each chair or gondola cabin so we can recharge all our electronic devices, hot spots at each tower so we can upload all our stuff to NYSkiblog real time.

I was about to mention Front Street.       I think Sno Bowl will only take off when/if Front Street gets more homeowners who demand their ski in/out runs as promised.    From what I recall reading, many years ago, the developer will be putting in and responsible for snow making on the runs (green) on that side.    With those runs opening, more snow making will occur to get you there.    

Since this is all foder and speculation, I did not want to waste time searching.   I am saddened and disappointed for Front Street.  Many called it a flub when it was announced.   And the economy crash did not help.    Some day it may be realized.  

Agree with Harv---Gore must grow incrementally.    


Beginner area is fine where it is at.  


I dont believe Northcreek etal could support night skiing.   Love to see it though.    That and a gondi from town to the bowl....LOL.    I do think it would be worth considering a lit park and getting ads to hype that.     A good park, the kind that would attract night rats.      Expand slowly from there.  

The ski bowl is certainly "different" than the experience that one would find at many large commercial ski areas.  While I appreciate snoloco's sense that "it could be made better," I think that many of us appreciate these quirks that allows us to have interesting terrain that is often empty even on busy holiday weekends.  I would certainly not like to advertise that fact! I agree with the headwall of 46er requiring some help.  Another pet peeve is the sometime early closure of the trails going back and forth to the main mountain.  This results in unnecessary van rides later in the day, and I have observed seriously ticked off people waiting at the Ski Bowl (can't call their friends at main lodge due to no cell service, and crowds hold up the vans at the main base area).  I don't propose an easy solution to that, as returning to the main side requires two lift rides.  The pipeline trail going to the Ski Bowl should remain open until the lifts close.  I'd like to be able to ski back to my car at the bowl at 4 after I pick up my kid from program at 3:30 so I don't need to deal with the crowded base area on holiday weekends.  I doubt that this is going to happen, and I know the reasons, but it would be nice.  On a kind of side note, from my limited experience skiing in Europe, there is a very different end of the day scene there.  There is a desire to catch the last chair to be able to hang out and drink at the summit or mid lodges (often multiple lodges owned by different families, not the ski area).  People coming down the mountain from these places with headlamps while the groomers are out is not unusual at all.  Amazingly, they will mostly refuse to ski in the powder "off piste."  Different liability climate, but interesting to see how different the ski experience is culturaly.