Ikon Pass

"The Killington skier is buying an October-May season at the biggest mountain in VT, the best facilities in the East, the most snowmaking and grooming in the east"




"Killington has spent the last 20 years being run into the ground"



I have no skin in the game I just think its funny that one guy says killi has the best facilities in the east (and I agree) and the next guy thinks killi is getting ran into the ground.  Those are opposites

Killi is a mecca for extreme early and late seasons. They are doing something right...

Their last new lift was the Skye Peak Express in 2008.  Since then they have taken out three lifts and not replaced them.  Well two of those weren't really needed, but they were still taken out either way.

Right now they need 4 new lifts ASAP.  South Ridge to replace the one that they stupidly took out for misguided reasons 8 years ago.  That might get done this year.

They also need a 6 pack on Ramshead to alleviate the atrocious lines there every weekend, high speed quad on Snowdon so there's an actually good alternative to the K1 gondola, and a new North Ridge lift so that they have something newer than 45 years old as the only lift they use early in the season.  Then they have numerous mechanical issues with both gondolas where they constantly break down (usually on busy days).  The lodges are also a mess and while I don't really care about that, many skiers do.

The skiing is great.  It's one of my favorite mountains in the east because of the terrain.  But they have simply forgotten about maintaining their infrastructure and Powdr is too stupid to bother to fix it, while spending like a drunken sailor out west to try and "take down Vail" on their own.

As an analogy to ORDA, this would be like charging Belleayre skiers double for their pass while they only built lifts and upgraded snowmaking at Gore and Whiteface.

snoloco wrote

RA:  A Killington skier has to pay 2.5x more than a Copper or Eldora skier (owned by the same company) for the same product.  That is why people are outraged.

Billy:  I get what you're saying but Alterra wants to have this big multi resort pass, yet charge the full market rate for passes in different locations even when it's the same product everywhere.   You can't have your cake and eat it too.

They screwed the pooch on this one.  Their greed left a big opportunity for Vail to swoop in and offer a better deal and steal a whole bunch of customers.

Sno, if you were the decision maker at Vail, what would your “better deal” pass look like?

That all depends on whatever they might choose to buy.  They don't have a good presence in the east as of now, but an earlier interview with Rob Katz said that he was looking at making more acquisitions in the east.

The void I see is having a good Boston and NY Market ski area.  Ikon offers none of that.  Stratton is 4+ hours away from either city when you take traffic into account.

The three mountains that I think make the most sense are Okemo, Sunapee, and Windham, but none of them will sell unless Vail offers a very large sum of money.

snoloco wrote

The void I see is having a good Boston and NY Market ski area.  Ikon offers none of that.  Stratton is 4+ hours away from either city when you take traffic into account.

Stratton is 3 hours from Boston. Same for Killington and Sugarbush, Sunday River just a bit more than 3 hours. Loon is only 2 hours. Loaf is a bit far at 4+. Suggesting Ikon doesn't offer anything good for the Boston market is flat out dead wrong. Ikon isn't doing right by NYC but is great for the Boston area. Might not be as good as the old pass but a great option for Boston area looking for multiple EC resort options combined with flights out west from BOS.

Epic pass only has Stowe so they have the best of the east but only one mountain... they need considerable partnership if they want to compete with the Ikon. Jay/Stowe/Burke would be all sorts of incredible. But I'd dread to see the increase in skier visits for any any that joins up on Epic, which is why I passed on Epic based on the assumption that Stowe would be mobbed due to the significantly lowered pass price. Okemo/Sunapee would certainly be a fantastic addition for the pass from a value perspective, though nothing I would be interested in personally.

Sno, Metro NYC is Stratton's market. Where do you think a good portion of their existing season passholders live? This is ideal for them and I know people that are already looking into multiple trips out west for next season based on this pass.

You only get 5 or 7 days between Loon, Sunday River, and Sugarloaf with this pass.  Max Pass gave you 5 at each.

I never assumed Stratton to be a Boston area resort.  It's on the edge of the NYC market but requires an overnight trip.  Still Ikon Pass is compete garbage compared to the Max Pass for NYC residents since there are zero days that are day trip distance to NYC.

The main thing Stratton skiers are happy about is that it's actually cheaper than their old pass which was 1000 bucks and only good at Stratton.  But everyone else got their price doubled or nearly tripled as happened at Killington.

The buzz I hear from Boston skiers is that they aren't too happy with the Ikon Pass, especially those who had the MAX Pass this season.  Some are thinking about the Peak Pass or going back to whatever local season pass they had before.

Combining the Boyne mountains into one 5-day block is quite a drop compared to the MAX Pass.  Plus there is no Add-on option for the Ikon Pass.

The folks who were getting season passes at former Intrawest ski resorts that are unlimited for the Ikon Base Pass are generally happier.  Will be paying less in most cases and getting the option of days at other Alterra or Partner locations.  I know Tremblant season pass holders who are as happy as Stowe locals were when Stowe went on the Epic Pass.

http://unofficialnetworks.com/2018/03/14/boyne-buys-6-ski-resorts-goes-from-operator-to-owner-overnight/

So why did Boyne buy the resorts it manages but doesn’t own?

Are they trying to sell themselves to KSL / Aspen or create a 3rd player.  It would make plenty of sense to have 3 or even 4 big players and Boyne differently lines up to be either 3 or 4th with Powdr.

It's a great thing they bought those mountains.  When they only operated them they didn't really have much say over the capital improvements and in a different article I'm hearing they want to invest in all three.

Of the three Loon seems to be the most in need of some love.  Still rocking the 1968 Hall double and 1988 4 passenger gondola that really needs to be bigger.  They also need to finish that South Peak beginner complex as they are seriously lacking in beginner terrain but have great intermediate terrain and decent expert terrain.

Sugarloaf is the largest ski area in the east by acreage and really should have more than two detachables.  They really need a base to summit gondola so that you can ski the steep terrain without having to ride two lifts.

Sunday River is having a lot of issues with the 1987 Yan detachable that was modified by Poma.  Boyne wants to replace it, but the owner has to pay for it and won't do it.  

snoloco wrote

It's a great thing they bought those mountains.  When they only operated them they didn't really have much say over the capital improvements and in a different article I'm hearing they want to invest in all three.

Of the three Loon seems to be the most in need of some love.  Still rocking the 1968 Hall double and 1988 4 passenger gondola that really needs to be bigger.  They also need to finish that South Peak beginner complex as they are seriously lacking in beginner terrain but have great intermediate terrain and decent expert terrain.

Sugarloaf is the largest ski area in the east by acreage and really should have more than two detachables.  They really need a base to summit gondola so that you can ski the steep terrain without having to ride two lifts.

Sunday River is having a lot of issues with the 1987 Yan detachable that was modified by Poma.  Boyne wants to replace it, but the owner has to pay for it and won't do it.

There used to be a base to summit gondola at Sugarloaf but it probably wasn't the best idea imo. It's really flat near the bottom and pretty steep on the upper half. An 8 passenger gondola from the base to somewhere just above their midpoint that gives access to a few key upper mountain chairs probably makes more sense from where I'm sitting. Why ski all the way to the base if the steeper stuff is what your after?

The problem is that Sugarloaf's dome shape makes it extremely difficult to get back to mid mountain lifts.  To lap their steepest terrain like Gondola Line and White Nitro, you have to go all the way down to Skyline or SuperQuad, then ski down to Timberline and ride that long slow lift back up to get to the top again.  It makes no sense at all.  Better to just have a base to summit lift because you can get back to it from all the terrain.  They already have a lift from the base to a mid point where you can get to the other lifts and that is the SuperQuad, but they really need a base to summit lift.  It would also be the highest vertical skiable off of one lift in the east if they did that.  Currently it's Whiteface.  The Skyeship gondola at Killington would still probably be more if you counted both stages as one lift.

The old gondola had lots of problems with wind due to the extremely light cabins and weird hanger arm design.  A modern gondola would do much better in the wind.  Whiteface is able to run their gondola the vast majority of days without any wind fences.

snoloco wrote

The problem is that Sugarloaf's dome shape makes it extremely difficult to get back to mid mountain lifts.  To lap their steepest terrain like Gondola Line and White Nitro, you have to go all the way down to Skyline or SuperQuad, then ski down to Timberline and ride that long slow lift back up to get to the top again.  It makes no sense at all.  Better to just have a base to summit lift because you can get back to it from all the terrain.  They already have a lift from the base to a mid point where you can get to the other lifts and that is the SuperQuad, but they really need a base to summit lift.  It would also be the highest vertical skiable off of one lift in the east if they did that.  Currently it's Whiteface.  The Skyeship gondola at Killington would still probably be more if you counted both stages as one lift.

The old gondola had lots of problems with wind due to the extremely light cabins and weird hanger arm design.  A modern gondola would do much better in the wind.  Whiteface is able to run their gondola the vast majority of days without any wind fences.

That is not really a fair comparison considering the Whiteface gondola doesn't go to the summit so isn't exposed to the harshest winds. Even if a hypothetical top to bottom Whiteface lift happened, it wouldn't be nearly as exposed at Sugarloaf's summit since Whiteface's highest lift serviced vertical is well under the actual mountain summit.

Whiteface has the same two lifts to the summit situation that Sugarloaf has. And there is nothing wrong with that setup. Sugarloaf is best skied in sections with top to bottom runs when you want to go inside. Two lifts for top to bottom runs is fine.

Regarding Loon, have you ever even skied there? Do you have any idea how much capacity that summit already handles? In addition to the 4p gondola, there is also a double chair and a trail drops down from the HSQ as well. There just isn't a need to increase the uphill capacity of Loon from the G. Loon is a total shit show, they have enough uphill capacity already

Your top to bottom gondola additions for SL and Loon would only serve to drive prices through the roof. Your Loaf G wouldn't be able to turn many days of the season due to wind and your Loon G would flood trails already at capacity with more traffic. There is a good reason why both mountains have invested in new lifts recently but have not sunk money into new gondolas, neither mountain needs a new one.

Whiteface's two lifts to the summit situation works fine because you can still lap everything except the Wilmington trail off of one lift.  The majority of the trails at Sugarloaf that go off the top except the ones that pitch off towards Timberline require two lifts to lap every time like the Wilmington Trail.  And if you look just about anywhere on the internet the biggest complaint about Sugarloaf is the lift arrangement.

The Whiteface gondola is very exposed to wind as they put it right in The Notch which is a big wind tunnel.  The breakover also needs to be super high to allow enough room between the terminal and the first tower to allow public downloading.  The lift must be able to stop from full speed within that distance in the event of a grip force fault.

Many western mountains also operate gondolas in much more exposed terrain than anything would ever be in the east.  Look at Mammoth for instance.

Neither mountain has invested in lifts recently either.  Sugarloaf kind of had to do Skyline as the double-double Spillway had a catastrophic accident.  Loon hasn't seen a lift since 2007.  Boyne recently announced a huge project at Big Sky, so they're clearly in a new era of investment, and I expect them to spread the wealth to the other resorts in due time.

riverc0il wrote

.
Whiteface has the same two lifts to the summit situation that Sugarloaf has. And there is nothing wrong with that setup. Sugarloaf is best skied in sections with top to bottom runs when you want to go inside. Two lifts for top to bottom runs is fine

I don't know if sno has ever skied Sugarloaf either, because you're exactly right RC.

marznc wrote

For a resident of SLC who doesn't get to ski too often, Ikon Base could be worth considering if okay with only 5 days at Alta and Snowbird combined.  Also 5 days at DV.  Especially if Solitude ends up as unlimited access.  Although many locals get a Brighton pass because of the night skiing.  Bet Boyne Resorts really regrets not being able to buy Solitude in 2014.

Well, Boyne Resorts worked out a partnership with Alterra for the Ikon Pass.  Not only is Solitude on the Ikon with unlimited access, Brighton will be a partner with the usual limited days, 7/5, for 2018-19.  That means people flying to SLC can ski at Alta, Snowbird, Solitude, Brighton, and Deer Valley with an Ikon pass.  Even for people who live near the "urban" ski areas owned by Vail Resorts, the Ikon may pull in midwesterners planning trips out west.

iKON has been stepping it up. Just added Solitude/Brighton, a most excellent pairing in Utah, and now, instead of five or seven days, depending on level of pass, at Sugarloaf/Sunday River, we now have five/seven days at each. Awesome.

Just read Sonolco's picky analysis of Sugarloaf. Dude, lighten up. Awesome mountain. Skied it the first time last winter, and they opened up a whole new cat area a day after we left, and that looks awesome. I'll be there when it snows this year.

Taos is on the Ikon now too.  As well as Niseko.  Both were on the MCP for 2017-18.  The last two MCP locations not on the Ikon are Sun Valley and Snowbasin.  Have to think that discussion is happening with the family that owns those two resorts.

Even though I got the MCP in March, given my trips plans to three MCP/Ikon locations it's going to make sense to get the Ikon Base too.  Mostly because I'm planning a couple driving ski trips to the northeast in Dec and early March.

There are a few Costco stores that still have the Full Ikon available.  The deal is that the buyer can get a $200 Costco gift card so the net cost goes from $999 to $799.  Ikon Base is $699.

When does the price go up on the ikon base pass?

Easterns are at Sugarloaf for my son this year so I know I’d get some use out of it

Z wrote

When does the price go up on the ikon base pass?

Easterns are at Sugarloaf for my son this year so I know I’d get some use out of it

Since this is the first season for Ikon and there hasn't been mention of another price increase, it's hard to guess.  The more important question is how long Alterra will continue to sell the 2017-18 Ikon passes.  MCP sales have ended in late Jan the last few years.  Epic passes have to be bought before Dec.

The price for Epic passes goes up on Sept. 3.