Lift Tickets and the Cost of Skiing

Here's a depressing article I just found that may be relevant to this whole corporate pass pricing. The comments I quoted just make me want to puke. I'm pretty sure the CEO of Vail is a super gaper, and I can pretty much tell that this Cohee fellow is an asshole, too.

http://www.steamboattoday.com/news/2014/dec/07/vails-transformative-purchase-park-city-raises-sta/

“All of us have wondered for years why Utah doesn’t do more business,” Cohee said. “The terrain in Colorado is just spectacular. The fact of the matter is, Copper Mountain, Breckenridge, Vail, Beaver Creek, Steamboat and Winter Park are just better ski areas. They’re just better mountains. There’s nothing in Utah that can compete with one of those mountains.

“Snowbird is a great ski area. Alta is one of the best 2,000-vertical-foot mountains anywhere. Park City is OK. The Canyons is not OK. Deer Valley is good. But they are not Colorado," Cohee explained. "Steamboat has 3,000 vertical feet of intermediate runs that are 200 feet wide with the best snow there is."

I didn't get a downer feeling from that article. The reason LCWC does not get the traffic that a Vail does is because there is nothing but great skiing, no fancy shops and restaurants. They are like a cruise ship experience. I think the skiing is better but I am not the norm.

What occurred to me was that if Interwest wants to compete they need to aggressively couple Mountain Creek to Steamboat and other Interwest properties. They should also buy up other local ski hills on the east and do the same. If they locked in the local skier to thier system they would easily compete. Imagine if a season pass to say West Mountain worked at Streamboat or Winterpark, you might buy that pass were you would not have before and you would take your western trip to one of their mountains, but the pass either needs to work completely or the discount has to be huge. Operate the whole thing like a system and not look at profitability at any one mountain. When looking at the MC season pass benefits page there is no mention of this. They are missing a huge opportunity. Their other discounts are lame and show that they just don't get it.

I think the real game changer, as far as what that article is pushing, is when Vail corp. finally buys a major eastern ski hill (hint, cough, cough, Killington). That would cement evil Vail as the great ski monopoly, with millions in the east climbing aboard because they can now use their Epic pass every weekend. I'm confused as to why it hasn't happened yet. But, I'll bet there's negotiations going on as I type.

I just saw your thread on TGR Benny, this is very interesting. I didn't even realize that Vail/Epic was so big now. I imagine they will continue to purchase smaller areas near large population centers to feed the masses to all of their other resorts.

The statements about Colorado having better mountains is in a way true, they are better for the terminally intermediate urban skier. The huge parks and snowmaking they have will draw a lot of affluent family's to them.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.

This:

400,000 x $769 = $307,600,000.  

That is insane.  All preseason and that doesn't include any walk-up ticket window sales!  

Marcski wrote

This:400,000 x $769 = $307,600,000.  That is insane.  All preseason and that doesn't include any walk-up ticket window sales!

What's freak'n insane is the fact that you can get a RT ticket from Newark to Denver for $200, if your MC season pass was good for Winterpark, it would be a no brainer, screw WF, the long drive, the mid day skied off conditions and the shitty hotels. It's a no brainer. Leave all that for us locals.

PeeTex wrote

Marcski wrote

This:400,000 x $769 = $307,600,000.  That is insane.  All preseason and that doesn't include any walk-up ticket window sales!

What's freak'n insane is the fact that you can get a RT ticket from Newark to Denver for $200, if your MC season pass was good for Winterpark, it would be a no brainer, screw WF, the long drive, the mid day skied off conditions and the shitty hotels. It's a no brainer. Leave all that for us locals.

You have pretty much described why the Catskills, once a thriving resort destination for millions, has been in an economic depression for decades. Well, not necessarily skiing related, but, you know what I mean. Affordable airfare has a major impact on leisure destinations.

Someone mentioned that Utah season pass prices are not nearly as competitive.  Now that Vail owns Canyons and Prak City that is going to change the landscape there.  I noticed that the Little and Big Cottonwood resorts are now banding together to sell the 4 Mt together.  They may not actually merge but seem to be following the Euro model of sharing revenues.  This must be in response to Vail.  The next step is to sell season passes this way to compete with Vails a Epic pass.

If Vail does say buy Kilington it will then dramatically lower east coast pass prices.  Long term thus may not necessarily be a good thing for skiers.  The sport is not growing that much and it could become a zero sum game driving smaller players from the market.  Prices will eventually go back up when the supply goes down and we will have fewer feeder areas.

Coach Z wrote

Someone mentioned that Utah season pass prices are not nearly as competitive.  Now that Vail owns Canyons and Prak City that is going to change the landscape there.  I noticed that the Little and Big Cottonwood resorts are now banding together to sell the 4 Mt together.  They may not actually merge but seem to be following the Euro model of sharing revenues.  This must be in response to Vail.  The next step is to sell season passes this way to compete with Vails a Epic pass.

If Vail does say buy Kilington it will then dramatically lower east coast pass prices.  Long term thus may not necessarily be a good thing for skiers.  The sport is not growing that much and it could become a zero sum game driving smaller players from the market.  Prices will eventually go back up when the supply goes down and we will have fewer feeder areas.

Deer Valley bought Solitude after the PC deal as, I guess, a blocking move. Utah is going to be a very different place by the end of the decade.

Coach Z wrote

If Vail does say buy Kilington it will then dramatically lower east coast pass prices.  Long term thus may not necessarily be a good thing for skiers.  The sport is not growing that much and it could become a zero sum game driving smaller players from the market.  Prices will eventually go back up when the supply goes down and we will have fewer feeder areas.

I'm thinking this is spot on.

So they'd use K as a loss leader to drive destination visits and hammer their western competition?

Even in the short run a $769 K pass would put the hurt on much of the rest of VT. Gore, WF anyplace within a short drive.

Well, on a macro level, it's kind of inevitable. The numbers of skiers are small and finite, and shrinking, like the middle class in general. This is the battle for the future going on. Just like small areas like Magic (almost) and many others have been killed by the Killingtons and Strattons, so they may be killed by the concentration of the market soon. They don't call them the 1% for nothing.

It would put a sting to the bigger Mts. but could cause the wholesale wipe out if the Plattys of the ski world and even kill something like Mt Snow or force them to sell out to the remaining 2 or 3 players

Even Stowe and sugarbush would have a hard time going it alone.

Coach Z wrote

It would put a sting to the bigger Mts. but could cause the wholesale wipe out if the Plattys of the ski world and even kill something like Mt Snow or force them to sell out to the remaining 2 or 3 players

Even Stowe and sugarbush would have a hard time going it alone.

I'd think it would hurt those closest the most, like Okemo and maybe the Bush.  Somehow I think Stowe would be OK. The farther away the better.

Plattekill and Catskill passholders and day trippers... would people really travel that far (to K)?

BE COOL if EVERY OTHER MOUNTAIN in the northeast went to a collective pass to fight it.

Harvey wrote

would people really travel that far (to K)?

Not me. I'd rather go to a place like Platty anyway. I suspect that to be the case of the clientele that visit the Plattys and such. Having some cheap pass to a bunch of box store places won't change that

A collective pass would be nice. But even a few days real cheap at another mountain or two would help lock people in. Suppose your gore pass was good for five days at Stratton at $25 each. ( reciporical privilege for Stratton holders) the mountains wouldn't lose any money - same pass revenue, plus some extra when other pass holders visit.

I know nobody here likes Stratton, so just substitute another mountain.

Tom

Stratton is a great place to take kids/families.   Good snow, easy blues, ok blacks some good trees here and there.  


ON PASSES:    Our mountain also drastically lowered the season pass to $399 a few years back.   Tons sold, more than ever, they too kept it for about 4 years and now are slowing raising.  $459 this year.     Lower taxes increases revenue--hey let's start a politics thread.  LOL.      

Find the average number of visiting/driving skier days....example 5.  Multiply by day rate ($69.00)  5 days times $69.00= 345.00     Sell season pass for $400.   It encourages that skier group to buy the pass.   If they come 5 days you win.   Many "hope" to come more, but won't.  If they come 6, your still even and have your money earlier.   If they come 7, so what, gouge them at the bar and cafeteria, ski shop.     In their mind they are skiing "free" so they may spend the cash in their pocket.   Remember, that season pass was paid for long ago.    If your skiers pay day rate, they just tossed $70 bucks away, not much more for the $8.00 beers or $9.00 hamburgers.      

Yes, I know.  Many season pass holders like me pack their lunch and go off campus for beer.    But we will do that regardless and there are only so many of us.     Sell to the masses of "this year I want to ski more"    

Added benefit:  Anyone with a pass is sure to brag to his/her friend, "I have a pass to xyz".  Let's go some day!   Free advertising of your area and maybe you will draw their friends in for a day trip or two, then three, then a pass etc.      

Gotta love it. Reganomics works for the ski industry! It's simple and makes a lotta sense.

I:)skiing wrote

Yes, I know.  Many season pass holders like me pack their lunch and go off campus for beer.    But we will do that regardless and there are only so many of us.     Sell to the masses of "this year I want to ski more"    

Added benefit:  Anyone with a pass is sure to brag to his/her friend, "I have a pass to xyz".  Let's go some day!   Free advertising of your area and maybe you will draw their friends in for a day trip or two, then three, then a pass etc.

I almost never pack my lunch at the two places I have a pass at.  My dad and I did it for a while, but it adds a lot of weight to our bags and slows down departure in the morning.  One of the places I have a pass at has 2 base areas.  I always like to have the freedom to eat at either one based on the day's circumstances.  IMO, or I should say IMDO (in my dad's opinion), it is worth it to pay to buy food on mountain.  Plus our passholder discounts make it cost less anyway.

The second thing, I totally agree with and I have done this with some of my friends.  Also, I agree that Stratton is a good place to take kids/family.  I don't see why so many people on here hate it so much.

TomCat wrote

A collective pass would be nice. But even a few days real cheap at another mountain or two would help lock people in. Suppose your gore pass was good for five days at Stratton at $25 each. ( reciporical privilege for Stratton holders) the mountains wouldn't lose any money - same pass revenue, plus some extra when other pass holders visit.

I know nobody here likes Stratton, so just substitute another mountain.

Tom

That's just plain stupid, they don't let people in rusted pickups wearing flannel into Stratton and a new BMW SUV would blow out it's suspension in the Gore parking lot.

snoloco wrote

 but it adds a lot of weight to our bags and slows down departure in the morning.

Are putting a whole turkey in there?