N Vermont vs Tug Hill contest

The lake effect  tends not to be high moisture content

PowderAssassin wrote

the whole spine of the greens get the same amount of snowfall

You can believe what you want and look at all of the NWS spotter totals you want, and you probably won't believe me, but I've skied all over the place pretty extensively, and I know first hand that without a doubt Jay and Stowe are the snow total leaders in New England with Smuggs right behind.

The notion that the entire green mountain spine gets the same amount of snow is ludicrous. Even Bolton, just a little south of Mansfield, gets less snow than Stowe (lower elevation) and as you progress down the spine, the snow totals often taper off excepting classic nor-easters (but NoVT usually picks up those on the backend).

NWS spotter measurements are not going to give you actual on the hill measurements. I will consent that areas may add an extra inch or two... but if they are all doing it then the extra inches are consistent across the board at all areas.

riverc0il wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

the whole spine of the greens get the same amount of snowfall

You can believe what you want and look at all of the NWS spotter totals you want, and you probably won't believe me, but I've skied all over the place pretty extensively, and I know first hand that without a doubt Jay and Stowe are the snow total leaders in New England with Smuggs right behind.

The notion that the entire green mountain spine gets the same amount of snow is ludicrous. Even Bolton, just a little south of Mansfield, gets less snow than Stowe (lower elevation) and as you progress down the spine, the snow totals often taper off excepting classic nor-easters (but NoVT usually picks up those on the backend).

NWS spotter measurements are not going to give you actual on the hill measurements. I will consent that areas may add an extra inch or two... but if they are all doing it then the extra inches are consistent across the board at all areas.

OBVIOUSLY mt snow gets less snow than Stowe/jay peak....I meant nothing unique in mico climate to jay peak. The Entire NORTHERN spine of the greens gets around the same amount.

PeeTex wrote

skimore wrote

I don't see the point in it. This is a dumb thread

It is a dumb thread. A great ski experience involves both good snow and the right pitch. Sierra cement does not make great skiing, neither does a high moisture content lake effect dump on flat terrain. Apples & Oranges.

Another asinine post. Lake effect snow is some of the driest snow on the planet. Do some research.

Harvey wrote

I want to know from Skimore: what is the best way to compare annual snowfall for Tug vs NoVT?

Is it possible?

BTW if you telling me NoVt has had 8 inches, you're trolling me bro.

Just ignore the NVT ski area reports and pay close attention to each storm and look at spotter reports. You can get a good idea from that. I honestly probably don't have time to do this alone. I'll end up missing storms. It snows all the time on the tug hilll. It's OBVIOUS tug hill(which average around 250...maybe up to 300 in the center of the tug near highmarket/montague) gets more snow than NVT. You also get DEEPER snows since you get these huge dumps at one time that Northern Vermont could only dream about. And you get Multiple feet without tremendous winds like at nearly 4000 feet when a low pressure system is bombing with tight isobars.

+1, best use of the ample snow in Tug Hill is snowmobiling.  Another awesome pastime.  As they say, when in Rome.....

Forecast for tug hill after the thaw.
Turin, ny forecast
Tuesday night A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 26. Chance of precipitation is 50%.
Wednesday A chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 33. Chance of precipitation is 40%.
Wednesday Night Mostly cloudy, with a low around 26.
Thanksgiving Day A chance of snow showers. Cloudy, with a high near 32. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Thursday Night A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 23. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Friday A chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 31. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Friday Night A chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 23. Chance of precipitation is 30%.
Saturday A chance of snow showers. Cloudy, with a high near 26. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

NVT forecast(2,300 feet)
Partly sunny, with a high near 37. Breezy, with a southwest wind around 22 mph.
Tuesday Night Mostly cloudy, with a low around 23. West wind 10 to 17 mph.
Wednesday Mostly cloudy, with a high near 31. West wind 5 to 11 mph.
Wednesday Night A 30 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 23. Southeast wind around 5 mph becoming calm in the evening.
Thanksgiving Day A 30 percent chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 31. Calm wind becoming southwest 5 to 7 mph in the afternoon.
Thursday Night A 40 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 11. Southwest wind around 9 mph.
Friday A 30 percent chance of snow showers. Mostly sunny, with a high near 19. West wind around 11 mph.
Friday Night Partly cloudy, with a low around 11. West wind 8 to 11 mph.
Saturday A 30 percent chance of snow showers. Partly sunny, with a high near 20. Southwest wind 11 to 13 mph.

RECREATIONAL FORECAST
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BURLINGTON VT
609 PM EST SAT NOV 22 2014

.THE HIGHER SUMMITS FORECAST FOR VERMONT AND NORTHERN NEW YORK...

.TONIGHT...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS. A CHANCE OF LIGHT MIXED
PRECIPITATION UNTIL MIDNIGHT...THEN LIGHT RAIN LIKELY AFTER
MIDNIGHT. EARLY LOWS IN THE MID 20S...THEN TEMPERATURES WARMING
INTO THE MID 30S AFTER MIDNIGHT. WEST WINDS 40 TO 55 MPH...
DECREASING TO 30 TO 45 MPH AFTER MIDNIGHT. WIND CHILL VALUES IN
THE MID TEENS.
.SUNDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS. A CHANCE OF LIGHT RAIN OR
SNOW IN THE MORNING...THEN A SLIGHT CHANCE OF RAIN IN THE
AFTERNOON. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 30S. WEST WINDS 25 TO 40
MPH...DECREASING TO 15 TO 30 MPH IN THE AFTERNOON.
.SUNDAY NIGHT...CLOUDY. RAIN SHOWERS...MAINLY AFTER MIDNIGHT.
LOWS IN THE UPPER 30S TO AROUND 40...WITH TEMPERATURES RISING
INTO THE 40S OVERNIGHT. SOUTHWEST WINDS 15 TO 30 MPH...BECOMING
SOUTH AND...INCREASING TO 40 TO 55 MPH AFTER MIDNIGHT.
.MONDAY...SUMMITS OBSCURED IN CLOUDS. SHOWERS...MAINLY IN THE
MORNING. HIGHS IN THE UPPER 40S TO AROUND 50. SOUTH WINDS 45 TO
60 MPH.

Harvey wrote

I want to know from Skimore: what is the best way to compare annual snowfall for Tug vs NoVT?

Is it possible?

BTW if you telling me NoVt has had 8 inches, you're trolling me bro.

I'm not trolling you bro. That's around what they got in the last event. Earlier snows fell before they were open, but I'm pretty sure the tug got some earlier snows(but then later melted). Let's start counting snow from opening date:

Tug hill: 35
NVT: 8(I'll up to 10 to be fair)

Tug hill:35
NVT:10

The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate is less than one pixel on NWS snowfall maps. Mansfield not so.

Also Jay Peak exaggerates by 10% to stay ahead of Stowe.

Pow ass you hittin any that tug? lets see a pic or a  report of you killin it!

Harvey wrote

The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate is less than one pixel on NWS snowfall maps. Mansfield not so.

Also Jay Peak exaggerates by 10% to stay ahead of Stowe.

Yep and we have nws data showing mansfield's average snowfall near the summit :)

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

skimore wrote

The lake effect  tends not to be high moisture content

Yes - my mistake in not clarifying. As it is falling it is very low moisture content. After it settles the story changes.
If it stayed at 2% no one would worry about 6' on their roof and the highway department would use leaf blowers rather than snow blowers.

So you're taking an estimate of northern vermont via pictures and then rounding up and down, according to how deep it looks, and then adding it to the total. If both areas get 450", are you going to be able to keep up with the math or are you going to be too busy driving 4 hours each way to snow ridge?

Snowballs wrote

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

This is true.....in magical snow fairy land. ;) Nowhere else on the northern spine of the greens gets snow. It only falls on jay peak for days and days at a time. lmao

 LOL

ml242 wrote

So you're taking an estimate of northern vermont via pictures and then rounding up and down, according to how deep it looks, and then adding it to the total. If both areas get 450", are you going to be able to keep up with the math or are you going to be too busy driving 4 hours each way to snow ridge?

No based on nws service reports from nearby spotters. You do realize that mount mansfield near the summit has an official nws reporting station and reports nowhere near what stowe reports right? That's why burlington nws wouldn't up it's totals for average snowfall on the map.

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416

222 inch average

There's also a nws station at the base of jay peak that reports not even close to what jay reports. I've already given the link to that 50 times, but I think people like to play with me.

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

This is true.....in magical snow fairy land. ;) Nowhere else on the northern spine of the greens gets snow. It only falls on jay peak for days and days at a time. lmao

 LOL

Now you're being a dink. Conditions like that happen with topographic precip. I've been at Gore when it snowed most of the day, 4-5 inches and when I left the valley, roads  had gotten zero snow.

Snowballs wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

This is true.....in magical snow fairy land. ;) Nowhere else on the northern spine of the greens gets snow. It only falls on jay peak for days and days at a time. lmao

 LOL

Now you're being a dink. Conditions like that happen with topographic precip. I've been at Gore when it snowed most of the day, 4-5 inches and when I left the valley, roads  had gotten zero snow.

We are now comparing a valley location to a mountain location? I thought we were comparing jay peak to the rest of the northern green spine? LMAO

Yes, but topographic preceip...or as it's better known orographic lift/upslope effect occurs all along the spine of the greens. It's not unique to jay peak. It happens at mansfield..it happens at killington....it happens at mt snow. Obviously mt snow being farther south means less snow. Orientation isn't as good in the south either
This is from an article. http://vtsports.com/the-jay-cloud-fact-or-fiction
This website promotes vermont skiing on top of it.
Here's what the burlington nws had to say about the so called jay cloud.

"So I called Andy Nash, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Burlington. “I haven’t heard it referred to as the Jay Cloud, but from our perspective, it’s a well-known fact,” he says. “It’s cloudier and they get more snow in the Jay Peak area, and when we do our forecasts, we take that into account.” It all, he says, comes down to topography.
“The way the mountain is oriented along a northeast-southwest line places it perfectly perpendicular to the northwest winds that we get a lot in winter,” he explains. Those winds hit the mountain, rise, clouds form, “and in winter, you get snow to fall, and the snowfall adds up pretty quickly.”
It’s the orthographic uplift Butson was talking about, but according to Nash, Jay is optimized in both its orientation and its location. “As you go farther down the Green Mountains into southern Vermont, the mountain orientation isn’t as perpendicular to the northwest winds,” he explains. “Also, in the southern parts of the state, the winds go over the Adirondacks first, where they drop some of their moisture before reaching Vermont. But upstream of Jay, there are no mountains to steal moisture.”
That source of moisture that feeds the Jay Cloud isn’t, as you might expect, the Great Lakes, or Lake Champlain, or the St. Lawrence. Rather, and surprisingly, it’s the Atlantic. When a low pressure system sits just to the east of Vermont, the winds spin counterclockwise around that low, pulling in moisture from the Atlantic, wrapping around to the north, and then smacking into Jay from the northwest. “That’s when Jay gets the winds and the snow,” Nash says.
Then, like Fredericks, he hedges his bet. “Jay Peak isn’t a singular entity—the same effect happens on other peaks. But that’s the magic of the mountains. They can pull out the little bit of moisture that’s left in the air and turn it into clouds and snow.” Just take a look at the NWS’s snow depth observation stations at Jay and Smugglers’ Notch for the proof. On any given day, Mount Mansfield might edge out Jay Peak… or not."

Elevation of Burlington is 200', it is exactly in the valley (and warmer being next to the lake, too).

I've always thought it was really cool the way there is almost no elevation gain between nyc -> albany -> burlington, but you drive up 23A and it's like a couple thousand feet in 1.5 miles.

PowderAssassin wrote

 We are now comparing a valley location to a mountain location?  

No silly. I was just making a point. You sure get confused easily. Unless you get yourself straightened out, this thread will be much like you, useless.

In fact, the rest of your post confirms what I said, so suck it, Confused-ist.

When the wind is out of the north, Jay gets upslope that points south may not. If the low sits for days, it can snow for days at Jay where it may not snow at points south. This is confirmed by what you just posted genius.