N Vermont vs Tug Hill contest

Snowballs wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

 We are now comparing a valley location to a mountain location?  

No silly. I was just making a point. You sure get confused easily. Unless you get yourself straightened out, this thread will be much like you, useless.

In fact, the rest of your post confirms what I said, so suck it, Confused-ist.

When the wind is out of the north, Jay gets upslope that points south may not. If the low sits for days, it can snow for days at Jay where it may not snow at points south. This is confirmed by what you just posted genius.

Hey snowballs, stick to rolling down the mountain and leave this discussion to the real mountain men.

 Yeah, no kidding, places on the spine get more than valley locations(what does burlington avegage....like 60 inches? lol) Again jay cloud not unique to jay.

Did jay peaks old site a long time ago used to say 250 inch average? I read that here.  http://www.epicski.com/products/jay-peak/reviews/2964

PowderAssassin wrote

 Hey snowballs, stick to rolling down the mountain and leave this discussion to the real mountain men.

There you go again Confused-ist ! Snowridge is not a real mtn ergo you're not a real man. Hehehe.

In fact, you tend to spout chick speak Confused-ist.

Snowballs wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

 Hey snowballs, stick to rolling down the mountain and leave this discussion to the real mountain men.

There you go again Confused-ist ! Snowridge is not a real mtn ergo you're not a real man. Hehehe.

In fact, you tend to spout chick speak Confused-ist.

Whatever you say snowfairy

Hey PowAss, no need to resort to name calling when you get called out on your Weird Facts.

Burlington: 200', 75" / year
Waterbury: 600', 120" / year

pretty big increase for 30 miles and 400' in levation.

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

This is true.....in magical snow fairy land. ;) Nowhere else on the northern spine of the greens gets snow. It only falls on jay peak for days and days at a time. lmao

 LOL

Now you're being a dink. Conditions like that happen with topographic precip. I've been at Gore when it snowed most of the day, 4-5 inches and when I left the valley, roads  had gotten zero snow.

We are now comparing a valley location to a mountain location? I thought we were comparing jay peak to the rest of the northern green spine? LMAO

Yes, but topographic preceip...or as it's better known orographic lift/upslope effect occurs all along the spine of the greens. It's not unique to jay peak. It happens at mansfield..it happens at killington....it happens at mt snow. Obviously mt snow being farther south means less snow. Orientation isn't as good in the south either
This is from an article. http://vtsports.com/the-jay-cloud-fact-or-fiction
This website promotes vermont skiing on top of it.
Here's what the burlington nws had to say about the so called jay cloud.

"So I called Andy Nash, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Burlington. “I haven’t heard it referred to as the Jay Cloud, but from our perspective, it’s a well-known fact,” he says. “It’s cloudier and they get more snow in the Jay Peak area, and when we do our forecasts, we take that into account.” It all, he says, comes down to topography.
“The way the mountain is oriented along a northeast-southwest line places it perfectly perpendicular to the northwest winds that we get a lot in winter,” he explains. Those winds hit the mountain, rise, clouds form, “and in winter, you get snow to fall, and the snowfall adds up pretty quickly.”
It’s the orthographic uplift Butson was talking about, but according to Nash, Jay is optimized in both its orientation and its location. “As you go farther down the Green Mountains into southern Vermont, the mountain orientation isn’t as perpendicular to the northwest winds,” he explains. “Also, in the southern parts of the state, the winds go over the Adirondacks first, where they drop some of their moisture before reaching Vermont. But upstream of Jay, there are no mountains to steal moisture.”
That source of moisture that feeds the Jay Cloud isn’t, as you might expect, the Great Lakes, or Lake Champlain, or the St. Lawrence. Rather, and surprisingly, it’s the Atlantic. When a low pressure system sits just to the east of Vermont, the winds spin counterclockwise around that low, pulling in moisture from the Atlantic, wrapping around to the north, and then smacking into Jay from the northwest. “That’s when Jay gets the winds and the snow,” Nash says.
Then, like Fredericks, he hedges his bet. “Jay Peak isn’t a singular entity—the same effect happens on other peaks. But that’s the magic of the mountains. They can pull out the little bit of moisture that’s left in the air and turn it into clouds and snow.” Just take a look at the NWS’s snow depth observation stations at Jay and Smugglers’ Notch for the proof. On any given day, Mount Mansfield might edge out Jay Peak… or not."

So basically Jay gets a shit ton of snow.

that's pretty funny.

ml242 wrote

Hey PowAss, no need to resort to name calling when you get called out on your Weird Facts.

Burlington: 200', 75" / year
Waterbury: 600', 120" / year

pretty big increase for 30 miles and 400' in levation.

Actually the waterbury station is at 760 feet, but it's not really relevant anyway.
You have tremendous downsloping of winds from the adks int the burlington valley. This is shown in the vermont precip map.
lol....look who called who names first...

Glade Runner wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Snowballs wrote

Harvey wrote

 The difference is that Jay Peaks micro climate

Isn't that just it ? Doesn't Jay get upslope/topographic precip ? Meaning the wind comes down from Canada then hits the mtns, rises and drops snow on Jay ? Doesn't this happen when there is also no other snow falling south of Jay and in fact can continue for days ?

I don't know for sure, it's just something I've heard. If true, it could add significantly to Jay's total.

This is true.....in magical snow fairy land. ;) Nowhere else on the northern spine of the greens gets snow. It only falls on jay peak for days and days at a time. lmao

 LOL

Now you're being a dink. Conditions like that happen with topographic precip. I've been at Gore when it snowed most of the day, 4-5 inches and when I left the valley, roads  had gotten zero snow.

We are now comparing a valley location to a mountain location? I thought we were comparing jay peak to the rest of the northern green spine? LMAO

Yes, but topographic preceip...or as it's better known orographic lift/upslope effect occurs all along the spine of the greens. It's not unique to jay peak. It happens at mansfield..it happens at killington....it happens at mt snow. Obviously mt snow being farther south means less snow. Orientation isn't as good in the south either
This is from an article. http://vtsports.com/the-jay-cloud-fact-or-fiction
This website promotes vermont skiing on top of it.
Here's what the burlington nws had to say about the so called jay cloud.

"So I called Andy Nash, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Burlington. “I haven’t heard it referred to as the Jay Cloud, but from our perspective, it’s a well-known fact,” he says. “It’s cloudier and they get more snow in the Jay Peak area, and when we do our forecasts, we take that into account.” It all, he says, comes down to topography.
“The way the mountain is oriented along a northeast-southwest line places it perfectly perpendicular to the northwest winds that we get a lot in winter,” he explains. Those winds hit the mountain, rise, clouds form, “and in winter, you get snow to fall, and the snowfall adds up pretty quickly.”
It’s the orthographic uplift Butson was talking about, but according to Nash, Jay is optimized in both its orientation and its location. “As you go farther down the Green Mountains into southern Vermont, the mountain orientation isn’t as perpendicular to the northwest winds,” he explains. “Also, in the southern parts of the state, the winds go over the Adirondacks first, where they drop some of their moisture before reaching Vermont. But upstream of Jay, there are no mountains to steal moisture.”
That source of moisture that feeds the Jay Cloud isn’t, as you might expect, the Great Lakes, or Lake Champlain, or the St. Lawrence. Rather, and surprisingly, it’s the Atlantic. When a low pressure system sits just to the east of Vermont, the winds spin counterclockwise around that low, pulling in moisture from the Atlantic, wrapping around to the north, and then smacking into Jay from the northwest. “That’s when Jay gets the winds and the snow,” Nash says.
Then, like Fredericks, he hedges his bet. “Jay Peak isn’t a singular entity—the same effect happens on other peaks. But that’s the magic of the mountains. They can pull out the little bit of moisture that’s left in the air and turn it into clouds and snow.” Just take a look at the NWS’s snow depth observation stations at Jay and Smugglers’ Notch for the proof. On any given day, Mount Mansfield might edge out Jay Peak… or not."

So basically Jay gets a shit ton of snow.

But not as as much as snow ridge and they're not even close to amount they claim in my opinion

The orientation of the spine... That's pretty much the way Scott Braaten decribes it.  Can't think of anyone with more knowledge on the matter.

You should see the pics coming out of Smuggs. Amazing how deep 8 inches can get.

Honestly, I don't have time to check every snow storm and add up totals. It's obvious what the deal is just by looking at climate normals.

You even said 230 for snow ridge.  Jay gets way more than 300.  Ive heard high seasons 350 to 370.  Its not even close even when you figure in exaggerations.  And even if they were close which they aren't Id rather be at Jay especially late season.

I understand you cant get the full Jay experience because your ability level doesn't let you explore the woods.

Glade Runner wrote

You even said 230 for snow ridge.  Jay gets way more than 300.

According to who? Jay peak...In my opinion they and stowe measure in drifts. Look at the climate data

Glade Runner wrote

I understand you cant get the full Jay experience because your ability level doesn't let you explore the woods.

It has nothing to do with ability level. There's nothing core about your average glade there. It's about being safe. It's like saying I don't have the talent to ski without a helmet

Yes for you its about safety but for me its about natural deep pow in steep woods.  Because afterall, deep pow is best enjoyed on a steep pitch.

Glade Runner wrote

Yes for you its about safety but for me its about natural deep pow in steep woods.  Because afterall, deep pow is best enjoyed on a steep pitch.

You don't need to have trees to have a steep pitch. You can't even go that fast in the woods. Let's be honest, trails get tracked out real quick on relatively narrow overcrowded ec ski trails so you quickly head into the woods for the goods. Also, at high elevation northern new england winds are really bad so much of the snow gets blown into the woods and makes for better quality.

Again, do you believe that alta only gets 145 inches more snow than jay peak? Should I start a alta forecast thread? LOL

Alta vs northern vermont thread next? They supposedly only get 145 inches more snow than jay peak on average. Some years jay peak might even get more! lol!

URGENT - WINTER WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE SALT LAKE CITY UT
1113 AM MST SUN NOV 23 2014

UTZ007>009-240600-
/O.CON.KSLC.WS.W.0008.000000T0000Z-141125T0000Z/
WASATCH MOUNTAINS I-80 NORTH-WASATCH MOUNTAINS SOUTH OF I-80-
WESTERN UINTA MOUNTAINS-
INCLUDING THE CITIES OF...WOODRUFF...RANDOLPH...ALTA...BRIGHTON...
MIRROR LAKE HIGHWAY
1113 AM MST SUN NOV 23 2014

...WINTER STORM WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 5 PM MST MONDAY...

* AFFECTED AREA...THE WASATCH AND WESTERN UINTA MOUNTAINS OF
  NORTHERN UTAH.

* SNOW ACCUMULATIONS...STORM TOTAL ACCUMULATION RANGING FROM 1
  TO 2 FEET...WITH GREATER AMOUNTS IN THE UPPER COTTONWOODS.

* TIMING...SNOW WILL CONTINUE TO DECREASE IN AREAL COVERAGE AND
  INTENSITY THROUGH EARLY THIS AFTERNOON. THIS LULL WILL LAST INTO
  TONIGHT. PERIODS OF SNOW...HEAVY AT TIMES...WILL REDEVELOP LATER
  TONIGHT.

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

Yes for you its about safety but for me its about natural deep pow in steep woods.  Because afterall, deep pow is best enjoyed on a steep pitch.

You don't need to have trees to have a steep pitch. You can't even go that fast in the woods. Let's be honest, trails get tracked out real quick on relatively narrow overcrowded ec ski trails so you quickly head into the woods for the goods. Also, at high elevation northern new england winds are really bad so much of the snow gets blown into the woods and makes for better quality.

Again, do you believe that alta only gets 145 inches more snow than jay peak? Should I start a alta forecast thread? LOL

Yea i agree with everything you said.  And yes it was a lot more fun ripping down some double blacks for first tracks at plattekill on both a 15 inch and 18 inch day.  I can't comment on Alta.  My experience only encompasses the east coast but, I dont intend to keep it that way.

PowderAssassin wrote

.
You do realize that mount mansfield near the summit has an official nws reporting station and reports nowhere near what stowe reports right? That's why burlington nws wouldn't up it's totals for average snowfall on the map.

Your research skillz ain't working so well

You do realize its known that that NWS station isn't very accurate? Trying to get accurate snow totals on any summit is difficult. Get a clue



It's been well discussed

http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index.php/topic/14742-nne-winter-snow-thread-ii/page-30



Yesterday was a great example of the flaws with the Mt Mansfield Co-Op snowfall data... it is only the "new" snowfall that is flawed though, not the total depth of snowfall on the ground.

1) The "NEW" snowfall bucket is not situated in a sheltered location like the seasonal depth stake. This is probably the number one issue. Where the stake is located at 3,700ft is very sheltered and much less prone to any wind (only in extreme wind events). However, the new snowfall bucket is up at the engineers station on the ridgeline. Fred Lavenburg (guy from WCAX in charge of measuring) said that his building is surrounded by windswept rock, so it is no surprise that there's never any snow in the bucket. The bucket is supposed to be a representation of the area and given that there is no snow on the ground where the bucket is, it makes sense that there's never any snow in the bucket either. What we decided needs to happen is the snow bucket needs to be moved down next to the seasonal stake, because right now the bucket isn't sampling the snowfall at the stake, but the snowfall on a wind-swept ridgeline.

2) Maybe another option we thought about doing was setting up a snow board similar to our 3,000ft plot right next to the snow stake. Our ski patroller, Spike, who has worked extensively with the Snow Rangers on Mt Washington thinks the best idea is to set up several different measuring methods to see which one collects the best data. A snow bucket may work in some areas, but not others. Likewise a snow board could work in one place but not another.

3) The guys that do these Co-Op readings are volunteers. They are engineers who are told to do this for the Weather Service. Fred said he is in charge of it but only does the measuring 2 nights a week and he's the only one that sort of cares. It sounds like the other guys really don't care what the data comes out to, they just do it because they have to. I think this is one of the biggest issues... the personal side of it. I don't blame them because if you don't have a passion for it, you're not going to go out of your way searching for the right answer when you've got a list of other daily duties to make sure the WCAX television towers are staying operational. That's why sometimes there isn't any data for the day because if something happens and the towers stop transmitting for whatever reason, these guys' first priority is making sure WCAX stays on-line, not measuring snow for NOAA.

skimore wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

.
You do realize that mount mansfield near the summit has an official nws reporting station and reports nowhere near what stowe reports right? That's why burlington nws wouldn't up it's totals for average snowfall on the map.

Your research skillz ain't working so well

You do realize its known that that NWS station isn't very accurate? Trying to get accurate snow totals on any summit is difficult. Get a clue



It's been well discussed

http://www.americanwx.com/bb/index.php/topic/14742-nne-winter-snow-thread-ii/page-30



Yesterday was a great example of the flaws with the Mt Mansfield Co-Op snowfall data... it is only the "new" snowfall that is flawed though, not the total depth of snowfall on the ground.

1) The "NEW" snowfall bucket is not situated in a sheltered location like the seasonal depth stake. This is probably the number one issue. Where the stake is located at 3,700ft is very sheltered and much less prone to any wind (only in extreme wind events). However, the new snowfall bucket is up at the engineers station on the ridgeline. Fred Lavenburg (guy from WCAX in charge of measuring) said that his building is surrounded by windswept rock, so it is no surprise that there's never any snow in the bucket. The bucket is supposed to be a representation of the area and given that there is no snow on the ground where the bucket is, it makes sense that there's never any snow in the bucket either. What we decided needs to happen is the snow bucket needs to be moved down next to the seasonal stake, because right now the bucket isn't sampling the snowfall at the stake, but the snowfall on a wind-swept ridgeline.

2) Maybe another option we thought about doing was setting up a snow board similar to our 3,000ft plot right next to the snow stake. Our ski patroller, Spike, who has worked extensively with the Snow Rangers on Mt Washington thinks the best idea is to set up several different measuring methods to see which one collects the best data. A snow bucket may work in some areas, but not others. Likewise a snow board could work in one place but not another.

3) The guys that do these Co-Op readings are volunteers. They are engineers who are told to do this for the Weather Service. Fred said he is in charge of it but only does the measuring 2 nights a week and he's the only one that sort of cares. It sounds like the other guys really don't care what the data comes out to, they just do it because they have to. I think this is one of the biggest issues... the personal side of it. I don't blame them because if you don't have a passion for it, you're not going to go out of your way searching for the right answer when you've got a list of other daily duties to make sure the WCAX television towers are staying operational. That's why sometimes there isn't any data for the day because if something happens and the towers stop transmitting for whatever reason, these guys' first priority is making sure WCAX stays on-line, not measuring snow for NOAA.

Yeah and I'm sure the NVT resorts do all the work required for the most accurate snowfall measurements that will potentially lower their totals..lol What's your excuse for the jay peak base station? lol