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ORDA May Gain Belleayre

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Snowballs

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Banned User

x10003q wrote

Easy.
Raise prices.
Eliminate most of the discounts.
Eliminate all DEC positions and go mostly seasonal. They did a bunch of this last year, but it will go farther this year.
Close chunks of the mountain mid week.
No snowmaking before Dec 1.
No snowmaking after Feb 15.
Charge for close parking.
Cut the marketing budget by 90%.

Does any of this sound familiar?

Man, you are on a roll X! You layin down some clarity.

IMO, The State saying they lose money on an area sounds awful fishy. They charge as much as the privates, yet they pay no taxes, mortgage, improvement costs, (on and on I've listed them before). I think they're full of beans.

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Benny you didn't sound like yourself with your first post - now you have reverted to the glass is not half full but busted self that we all know and really don't like all that much.

Though in a new first I agree with you - this is a terrible idea and both Gore and WF will badly suffer if this clunker of a ski area is dumped on us all. They lose money like crazy and its 150 miles away from the mother ship.

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

MC2 5678F589

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

This thread is getting good . . . we got mindless speculation, chicken little-type prognosticating, "Hunter sucks" arguments, and State Run vs. Private Run discussion starting to creep in. Maybe we could throw in a helmet debate just for kicks . . .

Or we could adopt a "let's wait and see" attitude and not freak out about anything just yet.

But I guess Fuj could be right . . . This is what the internet is for, might as well keep going crazy.

Benny Profane

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In reply to this post by ausable skier

ausable skier wrote

Benny you didn't sound like yourself with your first post - now you have reverted to the glass is not half full but busted self that we all know and really don't like all that much.

Though in a new first I agree with you - this is a terrible idea and both Gore and WF will badly suffer if this clunker of a ski area is dumped on us all. They lose money like crazy and its 150 miles away from the mother ship.

Yeah, I know, couldn't stifle any longer.

It's also 150 miles closer to about 20 million people with money. Right next door to Hunter and it's beds and nightlife.

funny like a clown

Snowballs

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Banned User

In reply to this post by MC2 5678F589

mattchuck2 wrote

Or we could adopt a "let's wait and see" attitude and not freak out about anything just yet.

Hear ! Hear ! I'll second that motion.
All those in favor of the motion say " Snowballs Rules! "

All those against the motion say " Snowballs Drools! "

Naturally, HPD and AS may have a certain, well, predisposition on this purposely proposed preposition affecting any positive prognostication performance and thus purloin the potentail poll.

So, I'll go ahead and record their thoughts......

HPD - " Snowballs drools ".

AS - " Snowballs is an ....... ".

Gunny J

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

This post was updated on .

In reply to this post by ausable skier

ausable skier wrote

Though in a new first I agree with you - this is a terrible idea and both Gore and WF will badly suffer if this clunker of a ski area is dumped on us all. They lose money like crazy and its 150 miles away from the mother ship.

We love this clunker of a place just how it is. Belleayre could stay stuck in the 80's forever as long as it stays open.We do not need ORDA or the Belleayre resort,We do need great managers like Tony Lanza.

Want to spend special time with your children, teach them to ski or snowboard. The reward will be endless!

adkskier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In reply to this post by Snowballs

Profitable operation requires motivated managers/owners and motivation requires some sort of incentive such as compensation or as we say in the private sector "work or get fired". There is just too much inefficiency and political influence in the state system. So...it's easy to see how a ski area could lose money and how it could be allowed to lose money.

Snowballs wrote

Man, you are on a roll X! You layin down some clarity.

IMO, The State saying they lose money on an area sounds awful fishy. They charge as much as the privates, yet they pay no taxes, mortgage, improvement costs, (on and on I've listed them before). I think they're full of beans.

I Think, Therefore I Ski

freshyslayer

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

haha tony finally chimes in

campgottagopee

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Just like in another ski forum...ORDA should run the ski hills and DEC should make sure I get my doe tags.

that's about how much I care about that

I just wanted to post in this very important thread

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

It's also 150 miles closer to about 20 million people with money. Right next door to Hunter and it's beds and nightlife.

Benny

thats what scares the crap out of me - they are close to a big mountain and all the hordes from Jersey and have not been able to make money for all this time - Orda does not need another Mt Van Ho to lose millions of $'s on per year. Its very simple Gore, WF and the ice arena make money everything else is a huge hole in the ground into which the profits go and then some. B is another such money loser that Orda can not with stand. If they dump this loser on us in 2 or 3 years some @hole state senator from Long fricking Island is going to be making a big deal on how Orda is not making money any longer like it used to and plug should get pulled. We dogged a bulltet last year - PLEASE don't dump this loser on us now.

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

Harvey

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Administrator

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I’m of the opinion, that it is human nature for people to worry about change, that they have no control over, but effects something they care about. Once the change takes effect things are seldom as bad as they thought it would be ... if ORDA does take over Belleayre we’ll just have to see how it all plays out, but my guess is everything will work out fine.

In my opinion this is well said and spot on.

ausable skier wrote

... Gore, WF and the ice arena make money ..

Ausable skier ... it does seem like ORDA can keep ski areas in the black. Why don't you think they can do the same with Belleayre? It's a sincere question.

I think they can do it. It might not make Belleayre supporters happy at first. If Bell really did loose a million, some things are going to have to change.

IMO ORDA has proven to be effective at lobbying for improvements at Gore and Whiteface. If this comes to pass, I think it will be good for Belleayre and New York in the long run.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Gore and WF are both great ski areas in the own right and do very well against their competitiors.

WF's competitors are the other major destination ski areas of Northern New England. Gore does very well in the competitive day skier Albany market since its much better than the catskills, berkshires, and sourthern VT. Bell is is not competitive in the Catskills and the Catskills are not the ADK's (sorry for the snobnish tone here but the truth of you can't make a mt out of a molehill applies).

Hunter and Windham dominate that market - always have always will. Throwing Orda money at it is not going to solve this and this money could be much better spent on WF and Gore.

I don't Bell sells Orda any more season passes because Orda's core customers are ADK loving folks. Ultimately this is just going to be a distraction from their core business and lead to unprofitability. I'm very concerned for the future of Orda in the region it was created to support (the ADK's not the Catskills) and if Bell threatens it I see it as something that should not be undertaken.

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

JasonWx

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Before the installation of the new Gondi and better snowmaking nobody went to Gore. To say that with some investment, Bell would still remain at the bottom of the pile is rubbish.

If Bell was to incorporate the Highmount trails and expand to the top of Cathedral Brook. They would crush Windham.

It wouldn't take a whole lot for Bell to meet or pass Gore in terms of skier visits either..

I forgot to mention, Bell receives more natural snow...

"Peace and Love"

Face4Me

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In reply to this post by ausable skier

ausable skier wrote

Ultimately this is just going to be a distraction from their core business and lead to unprofitability. I'm very concerned for the future of Orda in the region it was created to support (the ADK's not the Catskills) and if Bell threatens it I see it as something that should not be undertaken.

To me, that's an interesting point. The following is taken from Article 8, Title 28 of the New York State Code ... the law that created ORDA in 1981.

§ 2606. Legislative findings. It is hereby found, determined and declared that there is an immediate need to institute a comprehensive, coordinated program of activities utilizing the olympic facilities in and around Lake Placid, New York, in order to insure optimum year-round use and enjoyment of these facilities to the economic and social benefit of the olympic region and to minimize the financial burden on the state and local governments in the maintenance and operation of these facilities by means of maximizing revenue opportunities for their support; and to take advantage of the opportunity to improve the physical fitness and athletic and recreational education of the people of this state and the United States by assisting in the use and maintenance of these facilities. It is further declared to be desirable to create a state olympic regional development authority to operate, manage and maintain the olympic facilities, develop, implement and supervise the professional management necessary for such a comprehensive, coordinated program and for the management, promotion, scheduling and conduct of an integrated, year-round program and a wide range of national and international athletic training and competitive opportunities and other activities which can effectively utilize the available facilities. The authority shall carry out its purposes and responsibilities and utilize the facilities through agreements with state and local agencies which have jurisdiction over the various olympic facilities in the olympic region. It is further declared to be desirable that the authority develop, construct, operate, manage and maintain facilities, or participate therein, for the training and housing of amateur athletes in connection with the United States olympic committee's training center program and the authority's conduct of national and international sports events. It is further declared that the authority shall be created as a public benefit corporation and that the corporate programs and powers conferred under this title and the expenditures of public moneys pursuant thereto are in furtherance of serving a valid public interest and public purpose.

ORDA was created to address a particular need and to accomplish a particular goal. When Gore was added to ORDA's responsibilities in 1984, its mandate was exceeded by adding a facility that was outside "the Olympic region". Adding Belleayre, would further exceed its mandate. ORDA was not created for the specific purpose of operating ski resorts.

There's no way to know right now, whether ORDA running Belleayre would be a good thing or a bad thing in the long run. If this does happen, it's just another example of lawmakers "perverting" a law that was created for one purpose and using it for something entirely different. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, however, the "Law of Unintended Consequences" always seems to come into play when you do this sort of thing, and great care will need to be taken to make sure it doesn't end badly.

It's easy to be against something ... It's hard to be for something!

Benny Profane

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In reply to this post by ausable skier

ausable skier wrote

Hunter and Windham dominate that market - always have always will. Throwing Orda money at it is not going to solve this and this money could be much better spent on WF and Gore.

Well, as Mr. Glass Half Empty, I'd have to say that this is the problem. You, and others, are looking at this as the status quo just being disturbed by a shift in responsibilities and budget flows. But, we have to accept the fact that there is no more money left to "throw" at relatively unimportant things like ski hills, now, and in the future. It's pretty impressive that we have a Democratic governor with old family ties (even through marriage, uh, er, divorce) who is acting like a Republican of old, cutting budgets while putting brakes on tax hikes, but, that's where we are today in the new age of austerity. By all rights, Bellayre should have been jettisoned from the responsibilities of the NY state taxpayer, but, hey, politics rule, and this is the compromise, handing it over to the best managers of public ski hills in the state, for now. If the place still loses major money, expect it to close, as, well it should. Thank the lord it didn't get to the point where they built a money losing condo development and golf course on the taxpayer's dime. Enough already.

funny like a clown

x10003q

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

NYS Public Housing Authority Directors associt

Benny Profane wrote

Well, as Mr. Glass Half Empty, I'd have to say that this is the problem. You, and others, are looking at this as the status quo just being disturbed by a shift in responsibilities and budget flows. But, we have to accept the fact that there is no more money left to "throw" at relatively unimportant things like ski hills, now, and in the future. It's pretty impressive that we have a Democratic governor with old family ties (even through marriage, uh, er, divorce) who is acting like a Republican of old, cutting budgets while putting brakes on tax hikes, but, that's where we are today in the new age of austerity. By all rights, Bellayre should have been jettisoned from the responsibilities of the NY state taxpayer, but, hey, politics rule, and this is the compromise, handing it over to the best managers of public ski hills in the state, for now. If the place still loses major money, expect it to close, as, well it should. Thank the lord it didn't get to the point where they built a money losing condo development and golf course on the taxpayer's dime. Enough already.

Hilarious yet sad at the same time.

You might want to check this website. This is just one group. There might be others not represented by this group.
Here is a New York State Public Housing Authority Directors Association quote:
"The New York State Public Housing Authority Directors Association (NYSPHADA) represents 60 small, medium and large public housing authorities (PHAs), comprised of over 185,000 public housing units and over 100,000 Section 8 units across New York State."

NY State is very involved in taxpayer supported housing. We all drive by public housing every time we turn onto Peaceful Valley Rd from Rt 28.

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In reply to this post by Benny Profane

Both Face4me and Benny have really valid points

Orda has a strict legislative mandate to stick its efforts to the LP region. Let's say Gore is still in the region but clearly Bell is not. One of two things should happen if the Bell addition goes thru

1) Orda should be split into two with one becoming the NYS ski area agency and running the three mountains - even with Bell losing money it will be much more profitable compared to the existing Orda. Take the rest of the Orda assets in LP and give them to the town of North Elba who would raise the lodging and resturant tax to cover the additional costs of running the Olympic venues less WF.

2) the state legislature would need to amend the existing statute that created Orda giving it a much larger region to play in - maybe becoming a state wide tourism agency???

The only way I'm in any way favor of the Bell adder is #1. Still I'm very against this idea. WF and Gore don't really compete with other private ski areas in NYS currently but Bell would and this is not the business Orda should be in.

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

Jamesdeluxe

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

ausable skier wrote

WF and Gore don't really compete with other private ski areas in NYS currently but Bell would and this is not the business Orda should be in.

Why aren't there any privately-owned ski areas in the ADKs?

NY Ski Magazine • jamesdeluxe@nyskiblog.com

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

because all the land is constitutionally protected and the APA would not permit another major ski area - this is a whole different discussion but we can assume this is not going to change anytime in our life times

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

ausable skier

Re: ORDA May Gain Belleayre

In the Coalition press release, Kelly says that he thinks most Belleayre supporters will favor the idea of ORDA managment, but he expressed caution about how and when the transfer might take place. “We are endorsing this because we want a voice in our future — a voice we didn’t have with the DEC,” he added. “If Belleayre is going to ORDA, there must be local representation on the ORDA board.”

Local representation on the Orda board for Bell should be out of the question. When a company is taken over by a bigger company (especially in a weak competitive and economic position) the loser does not get a seat at the table - they are just happy to survive. Bell should thank the heavens they get this and take what ever they get. Again I can't state strongly enough how much I'm against this and I am planning to lobby locally in LP to prevent this from distracting from Orda's mission.

A true measure of a person's intelligence is how much they agree with you.

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