ORDA May Gain Belleayre

ausable skier wrote

In the Coalition press release, Kelly says that he thinks most Belleayre supporters will favor the idea of ORDA managment, but he expressed caution about how and when the transfer might take place. “We are endorsing this because we want a voice in our future — a voice we didn’t have with the DEC,” he added. “If Belleayre is going to ORDA, there must be local representation on the ORDA board.”

Local representation on the Orda board for Bell should be out of the question.  When a company is taken over by a bigger company (especially in a weak competitive and economic position) the loser does not get a seat at the table - they are just happy to survive.  Bell should thank the heavens they get this and take what ever they get.  Again I can't state strongly enough how much I'm against this and I am planning to lobby locally in LP to prevent this from distracting from Orda's mission.

Should we let them keep their skis?.....LOL..kidding

HPD - LOL

Maybe we could make them go back to old straight skis

This is incredibly bizarre:

http://www.post-journal.com/page/content.detail/id/581828/Goodell-Votes-Against-Budget-Bill.html

Mostly this part...

 Mr. Goodell supported eliminating the proposed $15.7 million taxpayer subsidy for the state-owned Belleayre Ski Resort.  "Although I love to ski, state taxpayers should not be subsidizing a ski resort. Instead, the state should sell this ski resort, eliminate the taxpayer subsidy and reduce spending," said Goodell. "In this and other areas, I will continue to fight taxes and spending."

I can't imagine how Bell spends this amount unless it is for more than one season. It also does not jive with the estimate of losing $1M last year. That would mean that took in $14.7 which couldn't be correct.

Maybe it's a typo = $5.7M?

Harvey44 wrote

This is incredibly bizarre:

http://www.post-journal.com/page/content.detail/id/581828/Goodell-Votes-Against-Budget-Bill.html

Mostly this part...

 Mr. Goodell supported eliminating the proposed $15.7 million taxpayer subsidy for the state-owned Belleayre Ski Resort.  "Although I love to ski, state taxpayers should not be subsidizing a ski resort. Instead, the state should sell this ski resort, eli minate the taxpayer subsidy and reduce spending," said Goodell. "In this and other areas, I will continue to fight taxes and spending."

I can't imagine how Bell spends this amount unless it is for more than one season. It also does not jive with the estimate of losing $1M last year. That would mean that took in $14.7 which couldn't be correct.

Maybe it's a typo = $5.7M?

Classic misdirection. The number seems made up. Maybe he saw some DEC plan for the next 10 years( or maybe it includes estimates for buying Highmount) and came up with a number. If he hates the idea of Belleayre he should introduce legislation to amend the NYS Constitution. I notice there is no mention of him doing or comteplating this idea.
 
Here is the real reason for the comments -
From Goodall's bio:
" He is a PSIA-certified ski instructor at Cockaigne Ski Resort,"
Do you think he knows the owner of Cockaigne? I do. Do you think the owner of Cockaigne bitches about NYS owning ski areas? I think the owner does. I bet the owner of Cockaigne has contacts in the Catskills who would love for Belleayre to close or be sold. Its win win for Goodall. He makes his own people happy and makes some powerful business entities in the Catskills happy.

Goodall served as Chatauqua County Executive for 8 years. He certainly didn't mind handing out tax exempt bonds all over his county. His district now as a member of the NYS Assembly includes the western portion of Chatauqua County including Jamestown. A quick google search brought up the Chautauqua Industrial Development Agency. The NYS office of the Comptroller says this agency is responsible for handing out $152,451,488 in  loans. Included in this total is a tax exempt  loan for NRG a publicly traded power company that bought a coal power plant in Dunkirk from Niagra Mohawk.

Here is the list of agency and authority debt in NYS.

If Belleayre was in his district and a major draw for tourism he would not say a word.

Hippocrite.

Why would a dinky little ski hill operator 200 miles away from Bell care about them getting state funds.  Just like I don't care the fate of a ski area that loses money 150 miles away.  Could be the owner of mole hill in Jamestown is buddies with the owner of Hunter?  This kind of politics is exactly the reason i so strongly oppose Orda taking Bell over.  Some state legistlator with an axe to grind could end up killing Orda and WF.  

I'm not quite sure I understand why you don't want the take over..I can't imagine you are concerned for the all the skiers that frequent Bell or call it their home mountain. Or are you afraid that they might siphon off money from the ADK mountains?

Like I said earlier, If Bell received the money to expand into Cathedral Ridge and Highmount, there is no doubt in my mind that they would crush Gore's and Whiteface's numbers...

This isn't a dig on Gore or Whiteface, Bell is just in a more favorable location to be the more profitable mountain..

Though i doubt Bell is ever in danger of crushing WF and Gore's numbers my objection is centered around the fact that Orda was created specifically to promote sport and tourism in the Olympic region and ADK's.  WF is need of capital to replace the LWF chair put snow making on Hoyt's and build out its final trail in the lookout pod.  Bell has no business being part of Orda and taking away that capital while losing tons of money in the process.  

Orda was almost wiped out last year by some idiot state senator from Long Island - can't take any chances with the future of the crown jewel.

If you had a choice of skiing one of the top 3 Mts in the east or Bell - its a no brainer.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

All those waiters standing around and they still can't get table service ?

Grant " Where da whiskey?"

Lee " Sir, I believe there's a still over in the next holla"

Grant " Say Bobby, how's about you hop on Traveller and we race on over there? Loser buys! "

Lee " You Sir, are on." " First, we must thank Wilmer McLean for the kindly use of his parlor "

Grant " Yea, he's probably still pissed you Rebs parked your Army like a stonewall on his farm during Bull Run, hehehe "

Lee " Well, at least he didn't skedaddle as fast as you Yankees did !!!"

If you are interested in this topic, this is worth reading:

http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre

Harvey44 wrote

If you are interested in this topic, this is worth reading:

http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre

As a WF skier I’m going to comment from that perspective. I know some people who have posted here and in other forums think that ORDA will find a way to make money from Bell to benefit LP. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that is not one I subscribe to. When I read that Belleayre needs a 5 million dollar investment just to be “spiffed up”, that really concerns me. All I can think of is money going there and projects like LWF chair, snowmaking on Hoyts and the completion of trails on Lookout Mt. will be pushed further back than they already are.

If ORDA takes over the operation of Belleayre without making WF and Gore suffer for it then I’m all for it. I don’t want to see a ski area close and the people who use it not have it. I read in all the articles Belleayre advocates keep expressing their concerns about representation and how they want this and that. Its human nature to want to take care of what is yours, but it seems to me they will no longer exist without ORDA. I don’t see any benefit to WF or Gore skiers.

I’m all for throwing a drowning man a life jacket, but don’t start telling the captain how you want things to run before you’re even pulled into the boat.

Catskill Heritage Alliance had their own independent study done, http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre. Their Chairman, Roger Wall, made this comment.....

“I think that for years, people have looked at Belleayre and said, ‘It’s losing money; we need to do something about it,’” Wall said. “I think that’s been partially fact, partially perception. The actual numbers have been very hard to get.”

The "actual numbers have been very hard to get " - speaks volumes!

Even during this age of open meeting laws, Sunshine laws, et al, ad infinitium, true numbers of Belle's finances are elusive.

Why? It's a friggin shell game played to deceive people and hide corruption, graft etc. When will you people learn this?

Example :  The New York Thruway authority refuses to open it's books to outside inspection. Billions$$$ pass thru it. A new law was passed requiring all NY Authorities to submit to outside audits and the Thruway Authority refuses to comply! Why? Cause they don't wanna go to jail or lose their wellspring of public money.

To say any of the State Ski Mtns lose money is an absolute joke. They charge as much as the private areas. They NEVER had to pay taxes, a mortgage, interest on loans(they have no loans), improvements costs, insurance costs, prolly no retirement costs, they get State discounts.

That's probably 50 % of the costs involved in operating a ski area and you people still believe they lose money. Amazing! They even have Benny, our resident skeptic, convinced that Gore couldn't possibly turn a profit.

What more do they need to be profitable? Private areas have none of these mega cost savings and yet PRIVATE AREAS MAKE MONEY! DUH! Yet you people believe the " losing money " bullchit they feed you. Can you put two and two together here? It equals four, not three.

You Waldos go on about them losing money and Poor Orda/DEC needs cash for XYZ.....Bullchit!

What do you think they're selling lift tickets for 50 cents and season passes for $5 ?

When will you put a set of balls back in your American Citizen sack and demand these morons shape up or go to jail?

NY has one of the highest tax rates in the country, the highest by far Medicaid cost per person, school costs per person. Yet any time a slight reduction in funding is proposed, it's like setting Santa Claus on fire.

At this stage, given the economic hurricane coming, if these State ski resorts can't be self sufficient then too damn bad!

That's right, I said it. There's plenty of other private ski resorts to visit who offer a better product and who don't have their hands around the nads of the taxpayers.

These NY State ski mtns should not only be self sufficient but they should be returning profits to the State treasury and it's taxpayers.

It amazes me that I am consistantly the only one here who speaks out against their lies and BS. Come on, at least raise your voice people.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

 I read in all the articles Belleayre advocates keep expressing their concerns about representation and how they want this and that......I’m all for throwing a drowning man a life jacket, but don’t start telling the captain how you want things to run before you’re even pulled into the boat.

That was most definitely a WF response. And you, HPD, wonder why the non-Placid people have the opinion that some of you Placid/Face guys view the rest of the State Mtn ski world as subservient.

Thanks for remaining in character HPD. It gives me another opportunity to apply the board of education.

These drowning men you referred to are American Citizens. As such, they are entitled to fair and equal representation. It is their inalienable right regardless of what you and your Placid cronies think.

Some Citizens have expressed concerns that an ORDA take over of Belle would lead to ORDA taking advantage of Belle. It didn't take long for ORDA's unoffical ski forum spokesman to provide merit for those concerns.

If Belle joins the ORDA fold, it is meet and right for them (and Gore) to have fair and equal representation on ORDA's board and in all it's operations. End of debate.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

don’t start telling the captain how you want things to run before you’re even pulled into the boat.

Such melodrama: winners and losers, sinking ships, powerful captains, etc.

All of the money that is used for capital expenditures at WF and Gore (gondolas and lifts, terrain expansions, snowmaking, lodge improvements) -- things that make those ski areas more attractive and more pleasant to ski -- comes from the State of New York. It is not ORDA's money, rather it's money that ORDA has lobbied for and received from the state: money that was collected via taxes. Last time I checked, the ADKs weren't exactly a big tax base. Thus, we're talking about a redistribution of assets from places that are economically viable (downstate NY) to places that aren't (most of upstate NY).

So what we have here is one welfare recipient saying that he's entitled to his present level of living because his advisor has been procuring money for him all along, keeping his house in good shape, and even upgrading it substantially: all on someone else's dime. Meanwhile, the welfare recipient with the crappy advisor who doesn't bother to advocate for him and has no idea how to tend to a house or manage a household, well, he's a loser, a clunker, and should sit down and shut up.

I like Whiteface/Gore and am happy to see them prospering under ORDA, but the parochial sense of entitlement from these two "we're the winners" knuckleheads is laughable.

The Grant/Lee pic was me kidding with Aus about his post above mine.

Thacheronix...you may find it hard to believe, but I don't want an us against them situation. If Bell does end up in ORDA I hope it works out for all of us.

I read every article I can find on this subject and have read quite a bit about concerns people in the Bell camp have about possible negative consequences to Bell if they join ORDA. I have read very little in these articles that are online about concerns WF/Gore patrons might have and I was just expressing mine.  

I also wrote this in this thread:

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Almost everybody who skis Belleayre, and posts on Alpine Zone, says it would be terrible for Belleayre if ORDA managed their mountain. A lot of people seem to feel that it would be detrimental to WF and/or Gore if ORDA had to take on Belleayre. I’m of the opinion, that it is human nature for people to worry about change, that they have no control over, but effects something they care about. Once the change takes effect things are seldom as bad as they thought it would be. On the other hand, if they were expecting great things from the change, once it is set in the reality doesn’t live up to their expectations.

So anyway, if ORDA does take over Belleayre we’ll just have to see how it all plays out, but my guess is everything will work out fine.

If Belleayre ends up as part of my pass some day I will definately drive down and check it out. I know alot of people love it and look forward to seeing it for myself.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I read every article I can find on this subject and have read quite a bit about concerns people in the Bell camp have about possible negative consequences to Bell if they join ORDA. I have read very little in these articles that are online about concerns WF/Gore patrons might have and I was just expressing mine.  

I don't really follow other forums, but I did read the Coalition to Save Belleayre's press release.  Reading between the lines a bit, I sensed that Joe Kelly was resigned, hopeful and concerned all at the same time.  His biggest concern seems to be layoffs at Belleayre. It's quite possible that he wants representation within ORDA to fight for those jobs. But if he wants to save Belleayre, he may have to give up some jobs.

It understandable that Whiteface and Gore skiers would be less apprehensive. Their "world" isn't being turned on it's head.  If Whiteface was getting handed off to DEC, I'd wager there would be some concerns.

Snowballs wrote

“I think that for years, people have looked at Belleayre and said, ‘It’s losing money; we need to do something about it,’” Wall said. “I think that’s been partially fact, partially perception. The actual numbers have been very hard to get.”

The "actual numbers have been very hard to get " - speaks volumes!

Even during this age of open meeting laws, Sunshine laws, et al, ad infinitium, true numbers of Belle's finances are elusive.

One thing SB is that those numbers are more transparent under ORDA.  Yes, there are shortcomings, and it's not easy to identify revs & exps by venue, but there's at least some disclosure.  You can get that at ORDA's corporate website.  DEC gives you nothing.

I've purposely avoided this debate because we've been through it all before, but I'll just go back on record as saying it is my opinion that this could be a win/win for all.

That would be a good thing Jeff. I've done  battle with Gov. entities before. It flat out p*sses me off when they deliberately endeavor to hide or obscure data, esp. money figures. I'm one firm believer in of the people, by the people, for the people. When they hide info that is commonly open/discoverable there is only one reason why they do it and it's not a good one.

Usually, you have to whip out the Bill of Rights and beat them about the head and ears with it. It does work. This is what I would do if I were in any of the Belle citizen groups.

Adk Jeff wrote

 this could be a win/win for all.

Exactly. And if it's true that Ted Blazer and Co. have signed off on it, do the Whiteface passholders here really think that he'd agree to just hand a significant piece of Whiteface's and/or Gore's capital budget to Belleayre?

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

If Belleayre ends up as part of my pass some day I will definitely drive down and check it out. I know a lot of people love it and look forward to seeing it for myself.

At the moment, Belle's three sweet spots would probably not make it worth a trip for you: vibe, bumps, and trees. Jason, Gunny J, and I have gone on about how relaxed and old-school it is there and that, similar to Plattekill, the d*uchebag quotient is non-existent. They do a great job of providing all levels of bumps (not just steep ones), which is very cool. There is a fair amount of sweet woods skiing on the east and west ends (accessible with a short skate) and between trails. Moreover, it doesn't take much snow to get the trees open and very few people bother with them. As many have complained, a majority of the cut trails are similar (a quick steep drop up top, followed by a blue runout).

In short, for someone accustomed to the big top-to-bottom at Whiteface, Belle will be underwhelming until they incorporate the lost Highmount ski area directly next door, which has nice double-bluish terrain, and Cathedral Ridge, which, when built out, will provide a sustained 2,000-vert drop down to Pine Hill.

But those expansion plans have been on the books for 15 years, maybe more. Who knows, even in a best-case scenario, if/when that'll happen. Still, there is a lot of potential to get Belleayre out of the "clunker" category.

in repsonse to Snowballs...

personally i think it would be better to have a private company pay NYS to lease WF and run it as the folks that own Okemo do with Sunapee in NH.  I posted on this exact topic last year when the ORDA funding was in doubt.  Unfortunately the NYS constituiton prevents that from ever happening.

I am unaplogetically pro WF and LP.  WF is the crown jewel of NYS skiing and there are very few people that could make a solid agruement that it is not.

ORDA was created to promote a very unique place that happens to have had the Olympics not once but twice - its like a national park for winter sports.  That's its mission and that is what it should stay.  The catskills have no link to that legacy and the legistlation that created Orda do not allow for it to operate elsewhere in the state.  Orda is funded also by the local towns and counties.

The catskill folks are right in that they should start their own county or state organization and save their ski hill.  it loses money at a rapid clip compared to WF and Gore so let them figure out what is best for them to make it work down there.  How the heck would we know? I also agree with HPD that they are demanding to be served steak after we pull them out of the water and that is waaay over the line.

All we are hearing about is what they want - want i want is for them to go their own way and lose money to their hearts content and don't mess it our good thing that we have going up in the ADK's.  

AS, your post is more of a response to the general question of should ORDA take over Belle and not a response to what I wrote. In case you missed the gist of my post it is as follows.... If ORDA takes over Belle then Belle deserves representation in ORDA.

Hooraying for one's own hill is fine. When that enthusiam extends beyond that and seeks to profit from other people  and their Mtns or deprive them from fair representation, then it is out of line and indeed selfish.

Sooooooo, how are you guys making out in getting paid parking established in the River Lot at Whiteface? What steps or plans do you or HPD have to achieve this?

I recall a certain person who thought paid parking was a great idea for Gore as it would generate much needed capital. That same person now wants improvements at Face. Here in, I have given him a way to raise money for his mtn, Whiteface. River lot is big. Make 70% or more of it paid parking, eh fellas?

If paid parking is a great idea for Gore, then it is equally a great idea for Face.

If local representation in ORDA is a great idea for Placid/Face, and if ORDA takes over Belle, then local representation in ORDA is a great idea for Belle.

Would you not agree with those two ideas, AS ?

For that matter, all those Olympic venues could have paid parking. Why not have areas generate their own cash, to cover their own azz, much like some here propose for Belle.

Serge & Cohorts could kick in a few bucks, just like they tried to make Front Street do in North Creek. Seems fair enough, eh?

It's all about equality, people.