ORDA May Gain Belleayre

Haven't been to Whiteface since 1997. ORDA seemed to be doing a great job running Whiteface back then. I always went to Whiteface in Mid to late March when it was usually warmer and hit some totally awesome spring conditions... corn snow and bluebird sky's. Skied Gore once on Fri. April 17 of 2008. A little long for a day trip - about 3 hours 45 minutes one way from Binghamton, NY. Really liked Gore. I ski Belleayre late season a couple of times. 108 miles to Bell... 1hr. 50 minutes... easy day trip... But I wonder how much money day trippers spend in the Belleayre region... I only bought gas once or twice at a Hess convenience store 8 miles from Bell in Margaretsville.

Almost forgot about the 1932 winter Olympics in Lake Placid. I looked up a couple of pics from 1932:

ausable skier wrote

in repsonse to Snowballs...

ORDA was created to promote a very unique place that happens to have had the Olympics not once but twice - its like a national park for winter sports.  That's its mission and that is what it should stay.  The catskills have no link to that legacy and the legistlation that created Orda do not allow for it to operate elsewhere in the state.  

Gore, like Belle, also has no connection to Placid's history or Face's location. Would you, AS, voice the same support you displayed above for Gore to leave ORDA? Or would you miss Gore's profits going to support Placid/Face?

ausable skier wrote

 I also agree with HPD that they are demanding to be served steak after we pull them out of the water and that is waaay over the line.

Are you friggin kidding? You compare a Constitutional Right to an unreasonable demand for steak? Wow! Let them eat cake, eh antoineete?

What evidence do you have to support your comment...." we pull them out of the water and that is waaay over the line. "

How do you figure, at this point, that ORDA is pulling them out of the water? Are you privy to any info that ORDA is going to put any of " their " money ( as some of you guys call it ) into Belle? Is ORDA going to assume Belle's payroll?

Do tell us how you support these ideas.

Oh, Oh will ORDA spend every future dime of what used to be DEC funding for Belle on Belle?

If ORDA does help Belle, they will be paid for it and do not forget, it appears ORDA is willingly going along with the plan.

The heart of my problem with Bell coming to WF is that while Orda may be promised some money this year to take on the money pit that is Bell there is no sure thing that NYS legislature will continue to do that in the future

Bell and the Catskills can't by statue have any representation on ORDA's board as they do not fulfill the mission and intent of ORDA per the law that created it.  If they want to saved fine - but if they want a seat at the table then they need to go create their own table / agency.  Orda is funded not only by the state but by North Elba and Essex Counties.  I'm not sure if North Creek and Warren county also chip in but they should.  If Bell becomes part of Orda then what ever county and town is going to have to chip in as well.  Hunter is going be screaming bloody murder if the local sales tax is used to support Orda and Bell.  This whole thing is a cluster F-ck and it should not go forward.

SB - what the heck is your obession with paid parking at WF.  We have a paid parking lot.  its the best lot on the mountain and i miss using it quite a bit.  No one is going to pay to park in the river lot and walk uphill to the lodge.  your obession with this topic has worn out its welcome mat - no one wants to hear about this any longer.

the more i think about it and read this thread, nys should divest it self from all of their ski areas. they are all money pits and waste of tax revenue..there problem solved...the skiing is better in vermont anyway and hunter and platt will be very happy with my money..

ausable skier wrote

SB - what the heck is your obession with paid parking at WF.  We have a paid parking lot.  its the best lot on the mountain and i miss using it quite a bit.  No one is going to pay to park in the river lot and walk uphill to the lodge.  your obession with this topic has worn out its welcome mat - no one wants to hear about this any longer.

Obsession? Ha! You obsessively fault the Belle people for saying they want this/that, then you turn right around and say you want/need xyz at Face. So what's the difference? Oh, you view yourself as more important than others and obsessively so.

You guys got a very small area for paid parking, Need more money? Increase the PP size. Man up boy.

You don't want money from ORDA going to help Belle, but you seem to have no problem with Gore's profits going to Placid/Face to assist there. And you bitch when I suggest more PP to help Face. You don't wanna help yourself, you want others to do it for you, the very same accusations you falsely level at Belle.

Your unabashed and unrelenting tyranny speaks volumes to your  total lack character. Obsessively, you deny Belle's right to representation on ORDA if ORDA agrees to take over Belle. Good thing there's the Bill of Rights to protect others from bullies like you. Ever hear of the Bills of Rights, AS?

Your not even smart enough to realize that everytime you post here, you are confirming people's opinion of Placid/Face arrogance toward others. It's the one thing you're good at.

I don't see Gore people posting the lame azz, arrogant posts about Belle being in ORDA that you do. If ORDA takes over Belle, they deserve local representation on the ORDA board regardless of what your punk azz spews.

Stop trying to deprive them and others of their civil rights.

People won't pay to park at the river, eh genius? They will if it's the only option to park close to the lodge. Block off or charge to park along the road also, just like the did at Gore. We used park right against the Northwoods lodge, can't now. The same principle would work at Face.

PP at the river lot, Kid's kampus and the roads(or no parking on roads) will work just fine. You're just too selfish and not honest enough to admit it. It's that lack of character thing.

To the rest of you who reside in the sane and civil rights supporting world.....

Personally, I don't believe Belle loses money.

Secondly, if it were a money pit, I very greatly doubt ORDA would even consider taking it over without making huge money demands. ORDA at times displays a greedy and an overiding Scrooge mentality. Remember when they were not gonna release the State's money for Gore's expansion? They refused to put it on the agenda and pass a resolution to release the money that they were legally bound to do. It took a group of North Creek people and State politicians attending an ORDA meeting to bitch slap them into compliance.

Had that not occured, who knows how long they would have held it up or what lame excuses they would have fabricated to not go forward. All along the money would have acrued interest in their accounts for ORDA's benefit. Plus Serge tried to extort money from Front Street in exchange for releasing the funds.

Just some thoughts.

SB

get your facts straight - its Gore that has been receiving the bulk of the capex funds lately not WF.  You and I already went round for round over the amount of money that it took to make a flat Gore even more flat.  Its good that Gore can expand unfortunately WF is done expanding forever.  I'd like to eventually see Gore expand more on its other boundary - skiers right off the summit.  The money to do so will not be there though because Bell is be busy losing it.

if you have an issue with paid parking at Gore i suggest you take it up with Gore's management.  That really has nothing to do with WF and i have no idea why every thread you post to becomes a discussion on paid parking - let it be already will you

My issue about representation is this - the Catskills are not the ADK's thus the Catskills have no business being part of Orda.  Its like saying the cable car on Randell Island in NYC should be run by Orda and if was then the mayor of NYC should be on Orda's board.  The Catskill folks should go off and start and fund their own agency down there devoted to thier issues.

Both WF and Gore both make money so the profits from Gore are not supporting WF and vice versa.  Bell is a money loser - always has been - its not as good as its major competitors so it is what it is.  Its also located much farther off the Thruway so it takes longer to get there compared to Hunter and Windham from NYC.  They do a very small fraction of the skier days compared to their neighbors

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

WOW - thanks for posting that Face4me, thats the first I've heard of it. That ought to generate some discussion.

Guess you were right!!!

 Its also located much farther off the Thruway so it takes longer to get there compared to Hunter and Windham from NYC.    
 

WRONG!!!

OH boy are you confused AS. Glad I'm here to educate you

ausable skier wrote

 get your facts straight - its Gore that has been receiving the bulk of the capex funds lately not WF...  Its good that Gore can expand unfortunately WF is done expanding forever.

 

Hehehe. Too much. I wondered if you would serve up this air ball. You see AS, as you mentioned and you overlooked, Face was pretty much already built out so ORDA, oh excuse me the State, could then turn to Gore to rectify years of neglect. We weren't even talking about this AS. Why do you bring it up? Can't defend the things you said on the subject at hand?

ausable skier wrote

 I'd like to eventually see Gore expand more on its other boundary - skiers right off the summit.

 

Get your facts straight yourself, AS. Skier's right off Gore's summit is at the boundary. Are you suggesting they build out of bounds? What will they find there - you? Yet again you go off point.

ausable skier wrote

if you have an issue with paid parking at Gore i suggest you take it up with Gore's management.  

 
I have no problem with PP at Gore. I could care less if they make the whole front lot PP, 7 days a week.

ausable skier wrote

 i have no idea why every thread you post to becomes a discussion on paid parking

Another untruth, your specialty.

Lee " You Sir, lack integrity "

Grant " I'll have whatever whacked out chit he's smokin! Man that dude's lost."

ausable skier wrote

 let it be already will you

AS cries " Uncle!"

You were saying how Face needs XYZ/money, so I suggested PP as a way to fund xyz. You found it unpalatable and instead demanded Steak!! You know, like you accused Belle of.

Adirondack Daily Enterprise wrote

Should it assume operation of the ski center, ORDA would be running a facility whose operating costs have regularly exceeded revenues, sometimes by more than $1 million, according to budget information provided by DEC. ORDA would face the difficulties of running the ski center from their headquarters hundreds of miles away with a budget stretched thin by recent state cuts.

For the record, I am to some degree responsible for the perception, on this forum, that Bell has been losing money. I read the article above, took it at face value, and went with it. It may or may not be true.

I have been looking for both skier visit and revenue numbers for Bell for two years, and have found absolutely zero until I read the article above. I did contact the author of the article by email to ask for the source of the numbers, but got no response.

Also for the record, all sources reporting this story have indicated that the current state funding of Belleayre - about $5 million will be transfered to ORDA. No one is expecting ORDA to run three mountains for the price of two.  I'm not aware if Belleayre has additional sources of funding outside of the state itself, but since both Gore and Whiteface cost more like $7-9M to run the $5M may not be enough.  

And of course there is no guarantee that Whiteface, Gore or Belleayre will get the same amount of money they had last year. It was right around this time last year that new ORDA budgets were being set, and there was concern among ORDA skiers.  Ultimately ORDAs allotment from the state was cut by well over $1 million. Who knows HOW ORDA actually pulled this season off. One thing was for sure, mother nature really cooperated.

I still say ORDA can make it all work, but not without some pain on the route 28 corridor.

JasonWx wrote

the more i think about it and read this thread, nys should divest it self from all of their ski areas. they are all money pits and waste of tax revenue..there problem solved...the skiing is better in vermont anyway and hunter and platt will be very happy with my money..

I'm going to assume Jason's being facetious here.  Probably just wants to keep this thread going, and going... and going...

Harvey44 wrote

I still say ORDA can make it all work, but not without some pain on the route 28 corridor.

 Umm, which Route 28 corridor:  Catskills, Adks, or both?

Jeff, most of what I said is tongue in cheek, but I'm also getting tired of some skiers complaining like a little kid who's parents have brought home a new baby.." why is the new baby getting all the attention and new toys"

Harv - my assumption is that very soon NYS will be asking to run 3 ski areas for the cost of 2.  WF made thru the season by cutting maitn and other costs as low as they could and look at all the lift issues we had.  You can not continue doing that forever without major consquences.  Putting major extra costs on an organization that is already streched thin is down right stupid.  Nothing against Bell but i don't want this to suck resources from either Gore or WF

SB - buddy just take a chill pill will you - our enemy here is not each other - its Bell.  This is going to drag us both down - i can see the posts now for sometime next season when its not snowing and we will be posting why more snow is not being made at Gore and WF so they can blow snow that will just melt at Bell.

Harvey44 wrote

 have been looking for both skier visit and revenue numbers for Bell for two years, and have found absolutely zero until I read the article above. I did contact the author of the article by email to ask for the source of the numbers, but got no response.

That's the odd part. I didn't go back and verify, but isn't there a former ORDA person now heading the DEC( or some such) who favors this deal? He may be privy to more complete and accurate info that made him think " This is crap. This place has money and can be run much better." Perhaps this is the motivation. Switching agencies saves political face if there's been some deception in the finances.

Isn't it Belle that's been giving away thousands of free or two fer passes per year to people who patronized that area's businesses?

Joe Martens is the Commissioner of DEC and Chairman of the ORDA Board. The latter position is volunteer.

I don't understand Belleayre as the enemy.

maybe not the enemy but certainly a distraction from the main focus of ORDA.  My biggest fear with this is that they will lose money and sap resources from the constitutionally mandated goal of Orda.  I can't see how this is a win for WF or Gore skiers.

i know this is a NY state ski blog but I'm only concerned with the ADK's - if that makes me a bad person fine - I is what i is.

A letter to the Albany Times Union from Roger Wall, the chairman of the Catskill Heritage Alliance:

The state Spending and Government Efficiency Commission is considering placing the Belleayre Mountain Ski Center, located in the Catskills and managed by the state Department of Environmental Conservation, under the Olympic Regional Development Authority, which runs the Adirondack resorts Whiteface and Gore and other facilities in and around Lake Placid.

SAGE, established by Gov. Andrew Cuomo to suggest state government efficiencies, says that nothing has been decided. But state and ORDA officials have said ORDA might take over Belleayre as soon as this winter. That would be much too soon. Many questions require public airing, scrutiny and answers first.

For a start, is Belleayre profitable or not?

The DEC says it posts profits some years. State Sen. John Bonacic, R-Orange County, has said "Belleayre makes money for the state."

A Belleayre Regional Advisory Group report says the operating losses are such that it's not a question of if, but when it will have to close.

A study commissioned by the Catskill Heritage Alliance reached a different conclusion. It found that even if the numbers the advisory group cited are accurate, Belleayre is close to break-even. Moderate increases in average skier revenue would put it in the black.

Read the full letter in the ATU:

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Easy-in-the-Catskills-1459654.php