ORDA seems to be still making snow?

I would think they would want something close to a population center. Wachusett, Windham, Mount Snow, something in southern NH?

Essentially, Liftopia has beat them to the punch by adding Stowe to the Mountain Collective pass. That's where my pass dollars are going next year, again. If only it snows.
If Vail puts a Vermont mountain on it's Epic product, I may very well avoid that ski hill for the very same reason I despise Breckenridge. Imagine the crowds.

If we're guessing which eastern mountain Vail would buy, my guess would be Killington.  I'd think they'd like to own the largest eastern ski area (would be without question once the interconnect was built).  There is also a huge customer base there that can now be on the Epic Pass.

There is no way the Orda mts would even be on Vails radar.  No corporation is going to undertake an acquisition that would take 3 years and a constitutional amendment

Killington would make the most sense but I doubt Powdr is going to deal with Vail after the park city thing.

Okemo and Sugarbush are both independently owned and Okemo comes with Sunapee.  Stowe could be in play if AIG needs cash.

Okemo is owned by CNL and operated by Triple Peaks.  Sunapee and Crested Butte are in the same boat.  CNL is in the process of liquidating, so Okemo might well be the eastern mountain that goes Epic.  In that case Vail would buy out Triple Peaks and add Okemo, Sunapee, and Crested Butte to their lineup.

Coach Z wrote

 Bellarye pass holders can still ski at WF and Gore where it's colder and snow will last more than a week.

Belleayre pass holders can't ski at Whiteface and Gore. We would have to be Ski3 holders. In my case Im a midweek pass holder so theres no equivalent Ski3 product.

Coach Z wrote

Let's not get into this Gore vs LP thing again please.  Orda has pumped significant capex into Gore even though Gore does not generate anywhere near the same payback in tourism and sales taxes that LP does.  Gore only makes money for the state thru their direct revenues.  WF does the same and then makes many many times more in taxes generated in hotels, restaurants etc.  

Note that WF is not blowing any more snow but Gore and Bellarye both are.  Why Orda is letting Bellarye blow snow that is going to melt in a week is beyond me.

 WAAAAHHHHHH!!!  Gore got a new HSQ to replace a lift that was falling apart and they couldn't repair anymore.  Gore and Belleayre get to make snow and Whiteface doesn't.

Z's Whiteface superiority complex never ends.

snoloco wrote

Coach Z wrote

Let's not get into this Gore vs LP thing again please.  Orda has pumped significant capex into Gore even though Gore does not generate anywhere near the same payback in tourism and sales taxes that LP does.  Gore only makes money for the state thru their direct revenues.  WF does the same and then makes many many times more in taxes generated in hotels, restaurants etc.  

Note that WF is not blowing any more snow but Gore and Bellarye both are.  Why Orda is letting Bellarye blow snow that is going to melt in a week is beyond me.

 WAAAAHHHHHH!!!  Gore got a new HSQ to replace a lift that was falling apart and they couldn't repair anymore.  Gore and Belleayre get to make snow and Whiteface doesn't.

Z's Whiteface superiority complex never ends.

HAHAHAHAHA that made me chuckle hard Sno

Why would anyone buy a Bellarye  only pass when for $90 more you get WF and Gore too?

If Orda racks up a huge loss this season which seems likely we could get less funding in the future hurting all 3 areas.  Bellarye should not be throwing good money after bad at this point when the forecast shows that snow they blow is not going to last.  There is not enough money to be made in March to justify blowing snow.

Do you see Mount Snow passholders complaining at Peak Resorts opened their Missouri ski areas this year?  I don't think so.  You've got no reason to complain that ORDA is trying to keep Gore and Belleayre open a decent season length.  If they let Belleayre close the first weekend in March, they'd lose many passholders to Hunter and Windham.  That would screw ORDA more in the long term (since Belleayre is acting as a feeder hill for Whiteface and Gore).  You let a Belleayre passholder switch to Hunter and they won't be going to Gore of WF if they want a bigger mountain.  They're going to Mount Snow and can possibly go for free.  Let them go to Windham and they'll go to Okemo (Windham passholders get discounts there).

Coach Z wrote

Why would anyone buy a Bellarye  only pass when for $90 more you get WF and Gore too?

I believe that the SKI3 option is only available with the unrestricted pass.  The midweek pass and non-holiday pass only come as Belleayre-only.  To get SKI3, you must have an unrestricted pass.  The same is true at Mount Snow and Hunter.  You need to have an unrestricted pass to be able to get access to other Peak Resorts.  If you have a non-holiday or midweek pass, it is valid at the mountain you purchased it at only.

I totally support the recent snow making at Gore.  Gore makes money and is self supporting.  

Orda is state run so we are at the mercy of politicians to fund operations in each years state budget.  Totally different than a private company.

With Hunter on the Peak Resorts Noreaster Pass, it's a direct competitor to the ORDA SKI3 Pass.  It used to be that Belleayre was the only Catskill mountain that was on a multi-resort pass.  I imagine that if some SKI3 passholders that used Belleayre as home mountain had it get shut down the first weekend in March while Hunter was still operating for at least a couple weeks after might contemplate getting a Noreaster Pass the following season.  It isn't always possible to do the longer drive to Gore or Mount Snow respectively, so the SKI3 passholder might think the Noreaster Pass was a better option, since they could still ski without staying in a hotel or doing a 7+ hour day trip.

Ok let's do the math on this

While I don't know exactly how much it costs in power, manpower, mait costs, over head etc to make snow My guess is we are talking about at least $500 per hour.  If we assume a 20% profit margin for the ski area you would have to sell 28 and a half $700 season passes to break even on an 8 hour shift of snow making.

Do you still think it's worth it from a business perspective?  The we are going to lose season pass holders next year argument is not valid.  You may lose a few but from a P/L standpoint it's a bad investment.

Why did Hunter, Windham, and even Mountain Creek and Mount Peter make snow?  They obviously thought it made sense from a business perspective because of there's one thing all these places have in common, it's that they exist to make money.  Most successful ski areas are pretty good at what they do, so I'd trust their judgement to make more snow to keep the season going.

Since ski areas are businesses they have this thing called competition between them for their customers.  If Whiteface was closed down and you were told to "ski Gore instead" you'd be pissed, right?  Belleayre passholders would likely be pissed if their mountain was closed weeks early and they were told "drive a little further and ski Whiteface or Gore".  It's really ironic that Z, the guy who lives up north is the one telling people to " drive a little further" when he's the one that doesn't have to do it.

A lot of ski areas barely break even on descent years, I doubt that running snowmaking right now is to keep a few season pass holders. Ski areas don't really make very much from season pass holders other than from their bar tabs. It's something but not a major concern. You can't blame them, they need to make money to stay in business.

There might be more to the reason they are blowing snow. Sometimes with agreements between two or more parties there is an expected amount of the product that needs to be used in order to continue the agreement the following year. What I'm saying is a long shot, I have no idea what the situation is out there and who controls the water or pumps the water or....you get the idea.

In 2004 I worked on patrol and I remember throwing way more bombs than we needed to for the couple of big storms but the deal was with the feds that if you didn't use a certain amount one year you wouldn't get as much as you might need the next. So we got to play with big fireworks! They were near there expiration date and if we didn't blow them up the ski area was likely not going to get a new stock the following season.

I have seen the same sort of agreements with the local Forest Service and their government funded projects. I have seen them get x amount of dollars for one project but then forced to spend that x amount on another project because the project it was meant for wasn't ready to go forward (usually because of nepa study requirements, thank Clinton for that pia) in order to receive equal funds the following year. So then the intended project is put off and something else takes it's place.

This probably sounds confusing and it is. Basically what I have learned is that anything with state or bigger government involvement gets to be ridiculous and a lot of things that get done don't seem to make much sense.

Fkn Sierra Club.....Man that group pisses me off.

Could anything like this be possible?

Sno

Ski areas are not staffed with MBAs in management.  The only MBA at WF is me.  They don't always make good rational business decisions based on running the numbers like other businesses do.  It's not surprising that ski areas don't make much money.  If I had tens of millions to invest I wouldn't chose to invest in a biz that operates for 5 months a year and is highly weather dependent.

I just showed you why it was a bad investment numbers wise.  Now you take that same analysis and add in the perishability factor.  The comparison is for that crappy pay back you bought a truck load of lobster with no way to keep them alive or refrigerated.  It was a a terrible business decision to blow that snow at Bellarye.  

If ski areas don't make much money then how did Les Otten get so rich that he was part owner of the Boston Red Sox?  How is Hunter running a 22% profit margin that Peak Resorts thinks that they can raise to 27%?

Hunter was great today because they took advantage of the opportunity to blow snow.  If they didn't blow snow, they'd most likely be closed in 2 weeks.  They haven't packed away all the hoses and ground guns, so they might not be done yet.  Their new management doesn't mess around in the snowmaking department (neither did the old management).  They have one more 48 hour snowmaking window in the forecast, and I think it is entirely possible that they'll take advantage of it.  They can put down a lot of snow with a window like that.

The reason you think that blowing snow at Belleayre was a bad idea is because in your mind, it is a sucky, inferior, southern mountain that isn't even worth visiting for anyone.  They should all drive past it to ski Whiteface.  

Was blowing snow at Hunter and Windham a terrible business decision?

A 22% margin sucks.  By the time you cover your S&A, depreciation, interest on loans, taxes, capex for snow making and the cushy lifts you love so much you are left with most likely a loss.

I'm not fond of Bellarye becuase I think both Windham and Hunter ski better.

It depends if it was a bad business decision for the others.  If they have hotel rooms that are going to be empty at Hunter you could make a case for blowing more snow.  That is why Killington does it and it works for them from a business perspective.  Last time I checked Bellarye doesn't have a hotel yet and even when they get one it won't be owned by Orda.

At Bellarye the sole income stream is lift ticket sales.  The food, bar and even rentals is operated by Centerplate.  To justify ithis snow making solely on lift ticket sales or future season pass sales is just not going to hold up well as a good biz decision if you run the numbers.

You want skiing only when it's profitable?  Then don't open till 12/26 and close first Sunday in March and only open on weekends.  That sounds like a great idea...  NOT

Hunter and Windham both have slopeside lodging, but their primary market is day trippers.  I do agree that Hunter and Windham ski better than Belleayre.  South of Whiteface, Hunter has the best sustained vertical in the East.

From what was discussed in the Peak Resorts Buys Hunter thread, I thought 22% was a pretty good margin for a ski area.

That's not what coach is saying sno, the fat lady has sung already for this season. Why would you keep spending on a guaranteed loss?