ORDA seems to be still making snow?

There's plenty of good skiing to still be had.  Get out there and enjoy what you've got instead of complaining about it.  If you want the ski season to end, then you're not core.

raisingarizona wrote

That's not what coach is saying sno, the fat lady has sung already for this season. Why would you keep spending on a guaranteed loss?

Because you want the customers back next year. If mountain A closes early while nearby competitors remain open for a few more weeks, my guess is that A loses business over time.

I would think that this year very few north east ski areas were profitable. Does that mean they should not have made snow tjis year? I think making snow is like building a brand. Its a long term investment.

Tom

I bet Hunter is one of the few that was profitable.  This is a year when the resorts with the best snowmaking and grooming will shine.  

Part of the business is getting passholders to come back next year and if one mountain closes and their competitors stay open, some of their passholders will be going to the competing mountains.

With Hunter now owned by Peak Resorts and on their Noreaster Pass, Belleayre is no longer the only Catskill mountain on a multi-resort pass.  Here's what a skier living in the NY metro area would likely think of each pass.

SKI3:  I'll day-trip Belleayre on most weekends and do a road trip each to Gore and Whiteface.

Noreaster:  I've got Jack Frost and Big Boulder for when I'm not feeling the drive, I'll go to Hunter if I feel like driving a bit further for a day-trip, and I'll do a couple long weekends at Mount Snow.

These scenarios are very similar and a typical weekend skier could easily enjoy either one.  The SKI3 option is better if you're doing a lot of road trips and the Noreaster option is better if you're staying closer to home.  Gore and Mount Snow are basically equivalents, but skiing Whiteface is better than nothing.  Hunter is better than Belleayre, and skiing JFBB is also better than skiing nothing.  

Coach I think your $500 number is low. I know it's way low for Hunter. (I would also kill for a 22% return in our company.)

I had the chance to speak to Laz today on multiple chair lift rides and have some Plattekill specific stuff that I'll share in the Platty Conditions thread. There was one thing he said that I think relates here.

I've known Laz for 7 or 8 years and he's consistently said one thing to me about snowmaking:

"As soon as they read the meter at the end of February, we are done."

The reason they pull the plug before the meter is read is demand pricing.  If you blow for even an hour in March, it raises the price per kwh for the entire month.

I asked him if they had gone beyond that date this year, and if so why.  They have.

This year we've had a lot of rain and bases aren't as deep. They have two full mountain rentals the week after next and they feel they have to deliver T2B skiing for those groups.  Noone knows the weather over the next two weeks, and he felt they had no choice but to blow after the meter reading. They are managing that demand by blowing off peak (10pm-7am) and weekends.  He described the team watching the clock and charging the lines at 10pm and closely monitoring for the morning shut off.

These groups are more important than you might imagine. Not only do they bring revenue in a tough year but if happy they tend to return.  One of the two rentals is a christian group that is on their fifth year.  These are dedicated customers who buy 250 tickets and do a significant amount of catering, it's a big deal for Plattekill.

I don't know too much about Belle, but with Gore maybe they are thinking about Quebec week, which is a huge deal for the mountain and they return every year.

Whatever the reason many mountains outside of ORDA blew this weekend.

Harvey wrote

These groups are more important than you might imagine. Not only do they bring revenue in a tough year but if happy they tend to return.  One of the two rentals is a christian group that is on their fifth year.  These are dedicated customers who buy 250 tickets and do a significant amount of catering, it's a big deal for Plattekill.

I want us to be one of those groups next year.  I'll organize the entire thing.

http://forum.nyskiblog.com/NYSB-Day-at-Plattekill-td4039495.html

TomCat wrote

raisingarizona wrote

That's not what coach is saying sno, the fat lady has sung already for this season. Why would you keep spending on a guaranteed loss?

Because you want the customers back next year. If mountain A closes early while nearby competitors remain open for a few more weeks, my guess is that A loses business over time.

I would think that this year very few north east ski areas were profitable. Does that mean they should not have made snow tjis year? I think making snow is like building a brand. Its a long term investment.

Tom

Yes, this is obvious. I was sort of thinking that there was already enough at this point to make it through to closing day but I don't live out there and when I wrote these posts I guess I wasn't realizing how bad it's been out there for you guys. Basically I'm getting involved in conversations that I shouldn't because I have no idea what I'm talking about! :)

Sorry everyone, chemistry homework and studying all day has me losing my shit and bored out of my mind!

snoloco wrote

There's plenty of good skiing to still be had.  Get out there and enjoy what you've got instead of complaining about it.  If you want the ski season to end, then you're not core.

 
Oh man I'm cracking up. Thanks for the laugh. :)

Harv

I felt $500 was too low but it made my case and I didn't want to get called out for making it too high.  If it's higher it just shows how bad a decision that is for Bellarye.  There is no way they can justify that snow.  I just hope the legislature does not cut Orda's budget becuase of a losing year made worse by Bellayre losing way more than Gore and WF do.  If I had to guess every eastern US ski area will lose money this winter.  Tremblant will most likely make money.

The margin thing varies by business type but if you are investing tens of millions in capital equipment you can't survive on 22% margin.  The depreciation and overhead including mait will destroy you.  Your biz I'm guessing is labor not capital equipment driven.  I think I recall Orda does not have to include depreciation in thir financial statements unlike private for profit businesses.

I am well aware of the metering issue.  If you blow snow after what ever date your March metering starts just running your chairs becomes unprofitable in March when the mix skews to heavy % of season pass holders skiing and fewer day tickets.

A small owner operator like Laz can move his needle with a few private groups.  A larger operation can't do that.  Also Laz might be happy just bringing in any additional income while a public corporation has stock holders and Orda has tax payers to consider which means reporting in %.  

Where do I fit if I am not core, but don't want the season to end?

What do you mean you're "not core"?  You seem pretty "core" no me. Not to mention your like the top NY ski guy.

I am sure that bell has to spend what they were allocated so it doesn't get cut next year. It's still impossible to compare public and private hills - orda is just goofing off with other people's money.

ml242 wrote

I am sure that bell has to spend what they were allocated so it doesn't get cut next year. It's still impossible to compare public and private hills - orda is just goofing off with other people's money.

 

Yes, this what was I was trying to get at!

ML,

If anyone is goofing off with other peoples money it's Greek Peak. For years they've been selling lift tickets and then taking that cash across the road, dumping it into the condos that most of the skiers aren't even staying at, and making the minimal amount of snow possible to get by. That's not very nice for the people who are actually skiing. I don't know much about ORDA, but I ski WF, and Gore occasionally, and have always been pleased. I don't have much to say about Belle but I imagine they figure making snow will just keep people happy, and maybe help them sell a few more tickets. I mean, what would you rather do, close next weekend, and build a bad reputation for yourself? or make snow as needed, and have people say wow, that is a dedicated mountain!?

Keep in mind that making snow, or even just running a ski area, isn't always about making money. It's about the love for the game. A good GM is willing to sacrifice a large part of his margin on a bad year knowing that it will generate a good reputation, and develop more interest in good years. Plattekill baby!!!

I personally think it's lame that MRG is closed, and now I will probably never ski there out of principal. But then again, Woodstream is also closed, so I guess I just shot myself in the foot.

Um...businesses have to make some money or they can't stay open.

I don't know about you but I like eating.

If they lose a bunch of money then you might not have a ski area the following year. I'm sure the MRG regulars aren't happy about the season but I bet they understand that it's probably necessary for the areas well being.

Who pays for your home based operation? What are you doing to put food on your table?

Sno can you please define "core" I am confused.

I did find this:

"the usually inedible central part of some fruits (as a pineapple); especially :  the papery or leathery carpels composing the ripened ovary in a pome fruit (as an apple)"

so maybe you are right.

Ethan Snow wrote

ML,

If anyone is goofing off with other peoples money it's Greek Peak. For years they've been selling lift tickets and then taking that cash across the road, dumping it into the condos that most of the skiers aren't even staying at, and making the minimal amount of snow possible to get by. That's not very nice for the people who are actually skiing. I don't know much about ORDA, but I ski WF, and Gore occasionally, and have always been pleased. I don't have much to say about Belle but I imagine they figure making snow will just keep people happy, and maybe help them sell a few more tickets. I mean, what would you rather do, close next weekend, and build a bad reputation for yourself? or make snow as needed, and have people say wow, that is a dedicated mountain!?

Keep in mind that making snow, or even just running a ski area, isn't always about making money. It's about the love for the game. A good GM is willing to sacrifice a large part of his margin on a bad year knowing that it will generate a good reputation, and develop more interest in good years. Plattekill baby!!!

I personally think it's lame that MRG is closed, and now I will probably never ski there out of principal. But then again, Woodstream is also closed, so I guess I just shot myself in the foot.

By other peoples money, Im pretty sure what's meant is taxpayer funds to operate a ski hill. Now, if one examines the NY state tax coffers, one could come to a quick conclusion that probably 98% of NY state taxpayers are contributing to ORDA's existence, and see zero return on that dollar. Not that many people ski, and most downstate taxpayers who do ski spend their time in either Vermont or out west, with a tiny minority in Europe.

MRG closed because it hasn't really snowed all season, and it rained like two inches last week. The place has minimal snowmaking, and it operates as a co-op, so, I'm guessing, they have difficulty borrowing money, and, maybe, are a bunch of sensible folks who don't want to destroy the finances of the co-op by making silly expenditures. Long live MRG.

Harvey wrote

Sno can you please define "core" I am confused.

 especially :  the papery or leathery carpels composing the ripened ovary in a pome fruit (as an apple)"

 Is it weird that I find this sentence arousing?

Benny Profane wrote

By other peoples money, Im pretty sure what's meant is taxpayer funds to operate a ski hill. Now, if one examines the NY state tax coffers, one could come to a quick conclusion that probably 98% of NY state taxpayers are contributing to ORDA's existence, and see zero return on that dollar. Not that many people ski, and most downstate taxpayers who do ski spend their time in either Vermont or out west, with a tiny minority in Europe.

First, the ORDA budget is a fly spec on NYS spending. The actual contribution is probably less then $.000001 for the average tax payer. There are way bigger spending problems in NYS. Second, lots of people visit the ski areas - if Gore didn't exist, the 200k+ winter visitors would be more like 5k winter visitors. There would be a lot of people without jobs and a lot of closed towns in the Gore area, kind of like Tupper Lake.

Benny Profane wrote

MRG closed because it hasn't really snowed all season, and it rained like two inches last week. The place has minimal snowmaking, and it operates as a co-op, so, I'm guessing, they have difficulty borrowing money, and, maybe, are a bunch of sensible folks who don't want to destroy the finances of the co-op by making silly expenditures. Long live MRG.

Spending $1.8 million on a single chair is a silly expenditure. Calling this group sensible when a double would have cost a lot less is funny. Having 10% of your terrain covered by snowmaking on the East Coast is sad for your members and customers. I would say MRG is the last place to be referenced as a bastion of good business sense.

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

By other peoples money, Im pretty sure what's meant is taxpayer funds to operate a ski hill. Now, if one examines the NY state tax coffers, one could come to a quick conclusion that probably 98% of NY state taxpayers are contributing to ORDA's existence, and see zero return on that dollar. Not that many people ski, and most downstate taxpayers who do ski spend their time in either Vermont or out west, with a tiny minority in Europe.

First, the ORDA budget is a fly spec on NYS spending. The actual contribution is probably less then $.000001 for the average tax payer. There are way bigger spending problems in NYS. Second, lots of people visit the ski areas - if Gore didn't exist, the 200k+ winter visitors would be more like 5k winter visitors. There would be a lot of people without jobs and a lot of closed towns in the Gore area, kind of like Tupper Lake.

Benny Profane wrote

MRG closed because it hasn't really snowed all season, and it rained like two inches last week. The place has minimal snowmaking, and it operates as a co-op, so, I'm guessing, they have difficulty borrowing money, and, maybe, are a bunch of sensible folks who don't want to destroy the finances of the co-op by making silly expenditures. Long live MRG.

Spending $1.8 million on a single chair is a silly expenditure. Calling this group sensible when a double would have cost a lot less is funny. Having 10% of your terrain covered by snowmaking on the East Coast is sad for your members and customers. I would say MRG is the last place to be referenced as a bastion of good business sense.

Well, as far as the first point, yeah, Gore is a form of wealth transfer by way of taxes from downstate to upstate. There are many other examples. But, bottom line, not many people ski. It's a silly, upper class sport, and, in ORDA's case, a wealth transfer from every taxpayer to the small percentage of New Yorkers who can afford the money and time to do so.

As far as MRG is concerned, betcha finances are pretty good. Whole lot better than most ski hills in Vermont this year. That co-op will be around for a long time. They don't do silly things like make snow in a March.

I think it is silly to say Mad is silly. Private groups or people do all kinds of silly things for their own enjoyment. Some might say buying a car costing more than say $30k is silly. Buying the land Zelda and I bought in the Adirondacks was silly.  But we are spending our own money in a way that makes us happy.

IMO the only relevant discussion of silly should be related to public money.  

With regard to WF, Gore and Bell that wealth transfer is not just to the wealthy, it helps local economies.  There are issues with regard to publicly funded competition to private enterprise. The Adks are a bit of a done deal, but the Catskills are still in play.