Specifically, What is it you'd like to change?

mattchuck2 wrote

 PeeTex, your posts make you seem like a miserable prick

I'm not a miserable prick, I am a really happy prick. I really think the pigeon poster sums you up perfectly. You don't understand my point of view, it confuses you and you refuse to accept that it may have any validity if it conflicts with yours. You not only insult me but many others who disagree and then you get all huffy when we kick back. The rest I will refrain from saying.

Also, I'm not saying Democrats are good on this issue, just less bad than republicans. This article will piss you off royally, so it might be best to save for after the weekend:

http://billmoyers.com/story/democrats-and-republicans-are-quietly-planning-a-corporate-giveaway-to-the-tune-of-400-billion/

PeeTex wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

 PeeTex, your posts make you seem like a miserable prick

You don't understand my point of view, it confuses you and you refuse to accept that it may have any validity if it conflicts with yours. You not only insult me but many others who disagree and then you get all huffy when we kick back. The rest I will refrain from saying.

You haven't explained your position well, so I can't agree. Your position appears to be: write in vote for Bernie, even though that will do nothing. Push for the election of Trump, because that will blow up the political system and somehow force the democrats to nominate someone "better" next time. But you've never explained how that would actually work or who is better. Are you pushing for, say, Elizabeth Warren? Or someone more in the range of Claire McCaskill?

You haven't articulated any kind of method to getting your decent ideas from earlier in the thread accomplished and I don't think you actually have any idea what method even exists (besides "do everything possible to fight Hillary).

warp daddy wrote

Camp you are NOT alone in your frustration. The situation we face now is our own making , democracy has matured to the point that decent people simply are too busy making a living , trying to stay ahead  while the taker class including politicians have filled the void left when good men and women are unable /unwilling to get involved in public service .

We can argue over the reasons , but what matters more is that the system has hit the wall and is full of inertia and minutia little of which feeds the soul of the populace . The spirit has been sapped and the less than ethical and the less than egalitarian and special interests have now gamed the system to the point at which it is now .

It is tired , old , inefficient and very ineffective and when one looks at mature democracies this happens on occasion . So have we become more like tired old bureaucratic Europe ?  The answer is a definite maybe . There are some entrepreneurial bright spots , there are some well intended pols ( mostly at the local level , where their feet are held CLOSE to The FIRE )

But generally people are very dissatisfied with the status quo and with corruption in both the corporate world as well as the public sector . It IS past time for change YET we have these two miscreants vying for leadership , neither of which generate hope nor the ability to coaleasce divergent factions . The situation is akin to engendeing a sense of ENNUI  in many .

So things need to change like the title of. book by Kriegel  entitled "IF it Ain't Broke, Break It ! "

Thanks for that Warp.

Tired is the best way to describe it. I like that. I'm sick and tired of thinking it's okay for the tail to wag the dog. We need a BIGGER DOG and I don't mean Trump or Hillary. Honesty is thought, a passion, a process, that is lost but hopefully not forever.

I was told by one of my favorite people I've ever met in my life that nothing will change in this country until there was another Revolution ----- He was an old wise man ---- He wasn't rich, but very wealthy in many, many ways ---- the older I get the more I'm thinking he was correct.

warp daddy wrote

Camp you are NOT alone in your frustration. The situation we face now is our own making , democracy has matured to the point that decent people simply are too busy making a living , trying to stay ahead  while the taker class including politicians have filled the void left when good men and women are unable /unwilling to get involved in public service .

We can argue over the reasons , but what matters more is that the system has hit the wall and is full of inertia and minutia little of which feeds the soul of the populace . The spirit has been sapped and the less than ethical and the less than egalitarian and special interests have now gamed the system to the point at which it is now .

It is tired , old , inefficient and very ineffective and when one looks at mature democracies this happens on occasion . So have we become more like tired old bureaucratic Europe ?  The answer is a definite maybe . There are some entrepreneurial bright spots , there are some well intended pols ( mostly at the local level , where their feet are held CLOSE to The FIRE )

But generally people are very dissatisfied with the status quo and with corruption in both the corporate world as well as the public sector . It IS past time for change YET we have these two miscreants vying for leadership , neither of which generate hope nor the ability to coaleasce divergent factions . The situation is akin to engendeing a sense of ENNUI  in many .

So things need to change like the title of. book by Kriegel  entitled "IF it Ain't Broke, Break It ! "

I agree with every paragraph in this except for the last. And the fact that I like Europe and I think we'd be better off if we had their abundance of political parties to more represent the diversity of American beliefs.

I'd love to have a Trump/Clinton/Gary Johnson/Bernie election with ranked, Instant runoff voting.

campgottagopee wrote

I was told by one of my favorite people I've ever met in my life that nothing will change in this country until there was another Revolution ----- He was an old wise man ---- He wasn't rich, but very wealthy in many, many ways ---- the older I get the more I'm thinking he was correct.

What happens after the revolution, though? Who are we revolting against? It'd be a very different country if Trump Supporters win as opposed to Bernie Supporters. Who would we install in power after the revolution? Will there be a vote? Who are we killing? I could get behind this:

I'm not smart enough to answer your questions Matt. I was stating what a dear old friend of mine believed. Maybe look at the last revolution?? Doesn't history repeat itself??  

That video was funny.

I will say this. I don't feel the revolution my friend was talking about had anything to do with killing. His big thing was to hold people accountable for their actions. To put it very simply the to big to fail mentality need to go away. The bailouts need to go away. people in our government need to be arrested. People in Wall Street need to be arrested. Big Bankers need to be arrested. People need to be held accountable for their own shit. JUST. LIKE.YOU.AND.I.

mattchuck2 wrote

You haven't explained your position well, so I can't agree. Your position appears to be: write in vote for Bernie, even though that will do nothing. Push for the election of Trump, because that will blow up the political system and somehow force the democrats to nominate someone "better" next time. But you've never explained how that would actually work or who is better. Are you pushing for, say, Elizabeth Warren? Or someone more in the range of Claire McCaskill?

You haven't articulated any kind of method to getting your decent ideas from earlier in the thread accomplished and I don't think you actually have any idea what method even exists (besides "do everything possible to fight Hillary).

I would say you have made no attempt to listen let alone understand my position or maybe you feel compelled just to argue your point over and over in hopes that if you say things enough time we will believe it.

I do not accept your premise that Trump will be devastating, that he will cause a nuclear war, that he will wreck the economy or any of your assumptions.
Lets "game out" the worst
10PM at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Pres Trump: "Fucking Mexicans, I hate Mexicans and the President of Mexico just called me a dick head on National TV, he's got to pay for that, get me the JCoS on the phone!"
ring ring
Trump: "General - I want you to drop a nuke on the presidential palace in Mexico - NOW!"
General: " Yes Mr. President, we'll get right on that, will take is a few hours to get the weapon in place and the targeting right - we have all the Soviet sites targeted but not Mexico"
General - clearly distressed, dialing the phone: "Hello Senator Reasonable, President Trump just ordered a Nuclear strike on Mexico, we will be preparing the weapon, I can give you about 12 hours to react".
Senator Reasonable: "OK, I will call an emergency meeting of the congress, we will declare Trump insane and impeachment proceedings will commence immediately"
So in my feeble mind your assertions are absurd, Trump could make the country worse but likely no worse that Bush 2 did. So lets "game out" what is really important - the restructuring of both political parties & campaign finance reform
Scenario 1: Trump is elected and he turns out to be a bad president. The Republican party has taken a huge directional hit in that the establishment candidates where slaughtered. The leadership now sees that they need to clean up their act and return to the days when they put up solid candidates like Ike, or TR. The Dems realize that crappy candidates like Hillary are unacceptable to the American people - they would accept Trump over HRC.
Scenario 2: Trump is elected and turns out to be a really good President, see Scenario 1 but with even more emphasis on reform.
Scenario 3; Hillary wins, the republicans are confused - was it because Trump seems like a train wreck or should they reform. The Dems learn nothing and we spiral further down into corruption and further degradation of the middle class and if you have money and/or power you get away with anything you want because the rules don't apply to you. This is the worst case.

In Scenario 1 or 2, if the Dems loose to Trump they will look at why, votes for a libertarian will be confusing, would they have gone to Trump? Votes for Bernie are clearly votes that a solid democratic candidate would have gotten and the message is that they need to give the people better choices. There can be no other "spin".

In NY, unfortunately - unless there is a ground swell of Trump support, Hillary is likely to win so a vote for Bernie might be futile, but it is how I choose to express my displeasure. For me Bernie is not only the person I think who would be the best choice for POTS but also the best message to send if he can't win. Since I want Bernie to win the nomination, I clearly want HRC out of the picture. My best case scenario is that she is indicted, Obama cuts a deal with her where she withdrawals and fades away - Bernie runs and hopefully wins. Win or loose - the scenarios above still apply, things will change.

Now if you don't understand this than that's too bad, I feel no more need to explain my thoughts to you. If you disagree, that's fine. If you still feel compelled to change my mind - go fuck yourself.

Yup. the way that I sort of understand things (which isn't saying very much) is that no matter who is president congress can make just about anything impossible for the pres to actually make happen. So I don't feel to worried about it either way. In fact, as much as I don't like Trump, like I don't at all, I'm not too concerned about it. Hell, I almost think Hillary will make more happen for the corporate powers that have already been benefiting from their relationships with our government at costs to the regular people in this country. My gut is telling me that she is just as dirty as Trump. I do believe that Trump will find ways to benefit himself as president, how could we not!?!

If anything Trump will be highly entertaining to watch. I know, that's a terrible thing to say but it's where I'm at with this whole shit show. He says a lot of outlandish shit but it's all talk imo. I'm still all in for Bernie and not because I agree with all of his ideas I just believe he is the most real of them and might have a chance to at least get the ball rolling in the right direction. I'm not worried about Bernie taking this country in a 180 into some ridiculously overly socialized nation. Congress won't let that happen either.

Another side of me says f- it all! Lets go full throttle Mad Max and the Thunderdome- you know, zombie apocalypse minus the zombies. It would almost be a more meaningful and exciting existence than this material loving 9 to 5 work our lives away doing shit we don't really want to do to keep up with the joneses American Dream bullshit we are living today. F-, the "real world" in america is freaking boring to me anyways.

Well said PT.  

I'm certainly not Pro-Trump, but I don't think the MC2 fear mongering is realistic.  

It's an interesting solution/hope that Ptex presents to this national dilemma.  Seems like a political Hail Mary at best but hopefully the country is resilient enough to get through a political Armageddon if Trump does turn out to be more Mussolini than Burlusconi.  Personally I'm not willing to goHail Mary yet.   As much bitching as everyone does, the country isn't nearly in desperate enough shape for such desperate measures. This isn't post armistice Germany, collapsing Greece or even a 1970's USA.  I've gotta save the back of the play book for when things get really shitty.

Yes by all means, real in Wall Street and make them accountable for knowingly disrupting national economics for their own greedy  desires.  Throw their asses in jail when they don't follow the rules.  I'm just not ready for the Mad Max solution as I have worked hard, followed the rules and have tried to work towards the greater good.

Hell of a good read and both interesting and scary:  http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimpowell/2013/02/05/how-dictators-come-to-power-in-a-democracy/#701691431082

Agree with this and the notion of Camp's friend.the revolution needed is process oriented ,not violent,but renders justice on a level playing field to those we have discussed adinfinitum.greed hogs,crooks in high places from all stations in life.

Most here like JOHN mentions have worked hard ,played fair and have achieved
 Going a.MAD MAX is neither warranted nor wise. But re-establishing high ethical standards,expectations and consequences is appropriate.The concept of personal responsibility together with accountability needs a refresher.
Inspite of all our flaws this nation is a great place to be .We will just need to find ways tomake this democracy work for the greater good again.

This is made up bullshyt. Why does it look like a newspaper article yet there is no date and no newspaper title? None of this can be found in Alinsky's books.

campgottagopee wrote

"Thursday, July 3, 2014  
Myths About Saul Alinsky (and Obama)

Lately, right wing sources have been circulating a fictitious set of 8 "levels of control"  or "How to create a social state" that Saul Alinsky was supposed to have written, which led off with
   1) Healthcare – Control healthcare and you control the people

 This myth is so thoroughly digested and accepted that answers.yahoo.com will spit it out as the answer to "What are the 8 levels of control as outlined by Saul Alinsky?" (last time checked: 2014-08-18).
 Yet is very easily shown to be a total fiction.

 Alinsky has been dead for over 40 years, yet the phoney connection between Alinsky and his supposed "How to create a social state" only appears on web pages from 2013 on, which probably means it is scuttlebutt generated for the post-election renewal of the war on Obama.

 If you Google { alinsky "Control healthcare and you control the people" }
 with a custom date range 1/1/2000-1/1/2013 you get 9 hits which all seem to not really be that old; but an unrestricted search gives 85,600 results (note that Google gives different results for different people based on their records of what you've shown interest in -- so your mileage may vary)

 So, apparently nobody ever heard of Alinsky saying  "Control healthcare and you control the people" before 2013, though he's been dead since 1972."

http://therealtruthproject.blogspot.com/2014/07/myths-about-saul-alinsky-and-obama.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/alinsky.asp

FUCKERS!!!

One of my co-workers showed me that today and I fell for it hook line and sinker

Regardless, it seems as tho we certainly are heading down that path --- UGH!

campgottagopee wrote

FUCKERS!!!

One of my co-workers showed me that today and I fell for it hook line and sinker

Regardless, it seems as tho we certainly are heading down that path --- UGH!

I read it for the first time when you posted it. I am not familiar with the work so I could not say and did not have time to research. So I am glad that was called out as BS. The best way to get control of a society and become a dictator is to feed on the emotions of the mob, love and hate are the two strongest emotions with fear being pretty close second. Our politicians practice this on us all the time and so you need to keep a level head about it and think through your emotions.
Our democracy has produced remarkable statesman on both sides of the aisle, unfortunately I think most if not all are gone now and I hope that somewhere in the crop in DC a few new ones will emerge.

There are only two motivators in life. Love and fear.

bonus points for pinning that hoax on a Jew.

Harvey wrote

There are only two motivators in life. Love and fear.

My wife uses these consistently.