Specifically, What is it you'd like to change?

PeeTex wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

You think he is interested in "focusing on policy"? He's had months to learn about world affairs and he hasn't learned shit. He is terrifyingly ignorant of world issues and he doesn't seem to have the willingness to learn. He's Sarah Palin with Money.

Again, you make unsubstantiated irrational arguments that only go to degrade your point of view rather than reinforce it.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/donald-trump-foreign-policy-speech-reaction-222544

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/279958-gop-rep-trumps-foreign-policy-agenda-incoherent

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-trump-foreign-policy-20160501-story.html

Quote:

The truth is, Trump does not appear to know what he is doing, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Disturbingly, though, he evidences no awareness about how much he doesn’t know, instead indicating that his own self-described brilliance puts him at a level of qualification higher than anyone who has spent a career studying and working within the complex realm of international policy

I'm only here to be entertained.  

Taibbi giving a better articulated PeeTex argument in Rolling Stone:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/democrats-will-learn-all-the-wrong-lessons-from-brush-with-bernie-20160609

If they had any brains, Beltway Dems and their clucky sycophants like Capeheart would not be celebrating this week. They ought to be horrified to their marrow that the all-powerful Democratic Party ended up having to dig in for a furious rally to stave off a quirky Vermont socialist almost completely lacking big-dollar donors or institutional support.

They should be freaked out, cowed and relieved, like the Golden State Warriors would be if they needed a big fourth quarter to pull out a win against Valdosta State...

Democratic voters tried to express these frustrations through the Sanders campaign, but the party leaders have been and probably will continue to be too dense to listen. Instead, they'll convince themselves that, as Hohmann's Post article put it, Hillary's latest victories mean any "pressure" they might have felt to change has now been "ameliorated."...

And the best part:

The maddening thing about the Democrats is that they refuse to see how easy they could have it. If the party threw its weight behind a truly populist platform, if it stood behind unions and prosecuted Wall Street criminals and stopped taking giant gobs of cash from every crooked transnational bank and job-exporting manufacturer in the world, they would win every election season in a landslide.

This is especially the case now that the Republican Party has collapsed under the weight of its own nativist lunacy. It's exactly the moment when the Democrats should feel free to become a real party of ordinary working people.

But they won't do that, because they don't see what just happened this year as a message rising up from millions of voters.

I agree with this. But I think the solution isn't: vote for a crazy fuck. I think the solution is: try again next time.

I have to admit, I am flirting with the idea of voting for Trump. Not because I like him but only because I detest the establishment and the relationship they have with big business even more than Trump.

The guy is a nut and a wildcard but at this point it's at least a shot to shake things up.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/09/anarchists-for-donald-trump-let-the-empire-burn.html

raisingarizona wrote

I have to admit, I am flirting with the idea of voting for Trump. Not because I like him but only because I detest the establishment and the relationship they have with big business even more than Trump.

A vote for anyone besides Hillary is probably in the end a vote for Trump. So write in Johnson or Bernie or someone with integrity. At least if the third part gets 15 or 20% it could help break up the two part system in the future.

RA, thanks for that article. It truly sums up how I feel as well as many of my friends. Enough is enough, and maybe, just maybe, it's time to roll the dice and as the author says, "let the fire burn how it will".

Harvey wrote

raisingarizona wrote

I have to admit, I am flirting with the idea of voting for Trump. Not because I like him but only because I detest the establishment and the relationship they have with big business even more than Trump.

A vote for anyone besides Hillary is probably in the end a vote for Trump. So write in Johnson or Bernie or someone with integrity. At least if the third part gets 15 or 20% it could help break up the two part system in the future.

 
Good point and a much more tolerable pill to swallow.

raisingarizona wrote

but only because I detest the establishment and the relationship they have with big business even more than Trump.

In order to make this argument, you'd have to articulate why Trump would be better than Hillary at breaking up this relationship.

Because I think Trump would expand this relationship and use it to enrich himself, at the expense of the American people. Hillary is firmly "establishment", so would definitely continue with the status quo, but would probably give some sops to the middle class (higher minimum wage, paid family leave, etc.). Trump wouldn't give a shit about the people, and would be pro business all the time.

mattchuck2 wrote

raisingarizona wrote

but only because I detest the establishment and the relationship they have with big business even more than Trump.

In order to make this argument, you'd have to articulate why Trump would be better than Hillary at breaking up this relationship.

Because I think Trump would expand this relationship and use it to enrich himself, at the expense of the American people. Hillary is firmly "establishment", so would definitely continue with the status quo, but would probably give some sops to the middle class (higher minimum wage, paid family leave, etc.). Trump wouldn't give a shit about the people, and would be pro business all the time.

 
I think he might too but with Hillary we know what we are going to get. Trump is a wild card and ya, it might turn out to be terrible. If it's terrible the point is that things might rapidly deteriorate that it sparks a political revolution. So I guess my thinking is that we survive a few really bad years and hopefully come out of it with a a majority that is going to actually really fight for real change.

raisingarizona wrote

I think he might too but with Hillary we know what we are going to get. Trump is a wild card and ya, it might turn out to be terrible. If it's terrible the point is that things might rapidly deteriorate that it sparks a political revolution. So I guess my thinking is that we survive a few really bad years and hopefully come out of it with a a majority that is going to actually really fight for real change.

So you're actively hoping that Trump gets elected and the U.S. goes to shit because you think that will turn people's opinions?

Isn't it just as likely the the U.S. goes to shit and people get more pissed off and it gets really violent in this country? And, urged on by a vile, racist president, that anger turns towards Mexicans and Muslims, and the violence is directed towards them?

I'd be happier if you just stuck with PeeTex's argument that we should elect Trump because he's generally harmless. Electing him for anarchist purposes (the country will go to shit and somehow, the middle class will benefit) seems like the dumbest gamble I've ever heard of.

I'm not concerned with your happiness in relation to my opinion.

raisingarizona wrote

I'm not concerned with your happiness in relation to my opinion.

But you understand why your opinion is problematic? Yes, you might be fine after a bout of anti Mexican/anti Muslim violence. But that doesn't mean you should root for it because you foolishly believe it will improve the country.

Trump, Hillary, and Big Business.

Matt often argues that Trump, from a left wing liberal perspective, is the bigger of evils because he will be pro Big Business.  Coming from the business world, operating from a purely capitalistic perspective, I do think Trump will be pro Big Business.  Whether that's good or bad has always been a subject of debate, and I'm not looking to get into that.

However, is Hillary some proletariat champion?  I don't think so.  She does what serves team Clinton's own best interest, with plenty of pro Big Business as part of her agenda I'm sure.

I think Trump and Hillary will just bring a different approach when it come to pro business politicking.  Trump will be very overtly pro Business, without shame, based on his business beliefs that stimulating the capitalist economy and creating weath will be good for the country.  Hillary?  She'll probably be more covert, pandering to the pro business special interests to garner political support, and helping those business causes that will be good for her, and will create weath for team Clinton, regardless of whether it's good for the country or creates wealth for anyone else.

I think I'd find Hillary's politics as usual pandering to Big Business for political favor and self interest,  with a smattering of scandal and corruption mixed in, to be the more offensive approach

But I could be wrong....

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume that both favor a broader role of business and a more entrenched surveillance/military/industrial/government complex. And for now, I'll accept your premise that Trump will more blatantly pro business while Hillary is just as pro business, but behind the scenes.

You still have the problem that Trump is a racist, authoritarian asshole. He's a bully, and his general conduct suggests that he thinks it's perfectly fine to demean people and question their integrity, just because of their race. You still have the problem that he doesn't think the press should question him or anything about his past. You still have the problem that the policies he does support will make things worse for the American people - policies like lower wages, undermining the U.S. Dollar, deporting millions of people.

Even if you're upset with the status quo (even though, as I keep arguing, the status quo has been good to all of us, but you entitled pricks on this board refuse to believe it), Trump is not the answer.

mattchuck2 wrote

Trump is not the answer.

I do not, and will not, disagree with you.  Never have.  While I would find him the lesser of evils, Trump isn't the answer.  Neither one is.  My problem with your continue sympathetic apologist Clinton bent implies that Hillary can be (I won't say is, because I know you don't plan to vote for her) the answer or, worse yet, that there isn't even a question/issue that needs answering.  Neither Hillary or Trump will be good for the country.  Whether one would be worse than the other is certainly up for debate, unless you don't believe in the system of checks and balances that is a cornerstone of our system of government.

Oh, and thanks for agreeing with me on the big business aspect of both candidates.....even though you tried to hide said agreement behind 'for argument's sake'!

JTG4eva! wrote

My problem with your continue sympathetic apologist Clinton bent implies that Hillary can be (I won't say is, because I know you don't plan to vote for her) the answer or, worse yet, that there isn't even a question/issue that needs answering.  Neither Hillary or Trump will be good for the country.  Whether one would be worse than the other is certainly up for debate, unless you don't believe in the system of checks and balances that is a cornerstone of our system of government.

My position isn't that Hillary is the answer to the country's problems. My position is that Hillary is a perfectly fine, safe President to have until 2020 or 2024 when we can elect someone who can do better. I think Trump is dangerous. I don't like him personally, I don't like the example he'd set as a President for kids and idiots, and I don't like the direction he would take the country.

mattchuck2 wrote

My position isn't that Hillary is the answer to the country's problems. My position is that Hillary is a perfectly fine, safe President to have until 2020 or 2024 when we can elect someone who can do better. I think Trump is dangerous. I don't like him personally, I don't like the example he'd set as a President for kids and idiots, and I don't like the direction he would take the country.

So the Clintons are a fine example of how we want our children to behave?? WTF!!! I failed my children and their children if that's what we have come to.

Hillary is the most dangerous potential POTUS out there, as I stated in the other thread - she is a national security train wreck. Trump may piss everybody off, I don't think for one minute he will trade the crown jewels for a little bump and tickle.

PeeTex wrote

mattchuck2 wrote

My position isn't that Hillary is the answer to the country's problems. My position is that Hillary is a perfectly fine, safe President to have until 2020 or 2024 when we can elect someone who can do better. I think Trump is dangerous. I don't like him personally, I don't like the example he'd set as a President for kids and idiots, and I don't like the direction he would take the country.

So the Clintons are a fine example of how we want our children to behave?? WTF!!! I failed my children and their children if that's what we have come to.

Hillary is the most dangerous potential POTUS out there, as I stated in the other thread - she is a national security train wreck. Trump may piss everybody off, I don't think for one minute he will trade the crown jewels for a little bump and tickle.

Because Hillary Clinton will "trade the Crown Jewels for a little bump and tickle"?

You're unhinged.

<quote author="mattchuck2">
<Because Hillary Clinton will "trade the Crown Jewels for a little bump and tickle"?

You're unhinged.
</quote>
Nope - you are blinded by your bias. If you put aside and accept all the corruption you are still left with the blind ambition and blatant disregard for process and procedure. This will lead these two to put the country in more jeopardy than anything Trump may be accused of. Hillary will completely sell out the country to protect her "legacy", if it came between National security and her pending impeachment - there is no doubt in my mind where she will stand. If you can't see that you are even a bigger fool than even I could have imagined.