The Raising and decline of Jay Peak

Several million people would disagree  with you Mr. Jack

Thank god not everyone listens to you

campgottagopee wrote

It's super easy to be a "gaper" at bowling. It's one of the hardest sports to be good at. Anyone who disagree's has never been.

Looks easy

skimore wrote

 

Looks easy

 

I dated a girl that looked easy

Sadly she wasn't

awesome ^^

THis was a good discussion.     Boiling down 11 pages, I found the following:

* not all beginners are gapers
* we need beginners for the sport to survive, though we wish they would be separated for their own and other's benefit.
* gapers are very different from beginners or infrequent participants in the sport. Due to many reasons, but generally its an ego driven attitude.  
* we should watch how we use the word gaper, as it generally is "ribbing" but could be offensive.
* Jay is attracting lots of beginners/infequent skiers due to increasing volume and quality of other amenities.  This could be decreasing the general level of skill at the mountain, which should recognize this and pay more attention to their needs (more grooming,  as example).
* for whatever reason be it social, economic or other, more of these Jay customers are gapers.  That could be due to a larger volume of beginners with the % of beginner/gaper ratio, which then increases proportionally.   OR, the % of gapers in that beginner/infequent group  could be adversely growing.    
* perphas water slides attracts true gapers for reasons yet unstudied.  

I personnally think gaper volume is increasing as a % of the skier/boarder population for the following reasons:  1) there is an incredible amount of weath out there and parents don't mind spending it on themselves, their kids/teens.   (the gap between rich and poor is widening every day)    2) these kids/teens/parents have less free time to spend in any one sport/activity thus may not be "good" as they otherwise may have been.  But whenever they are involved in such activities,  they have smoke blown up their butts that they are awesome at each....The "every kids gets a trophy" syndrome.   3) because they are new or infrequent, they either don't have sufficient time or don't care to learn the norms of the sport in the areas of:  dress, safety, or courtesy.  

For examples,  I cite:

 A mountain to the north of me attracts well off parents whose kid racers join the circuit.  The coaches don't turn any one away.      Inevitably 3-5 kids on this team (age 8-14) sport the sweetest race suits, the hottest skis, helmets, goggles, gloves etc.  These Gaper race kids come crawling down the course using their right pole to "PUSH" themselves left.   No one would or should ever call these kids out as gapers, that is derogary and bullying in my view.     They are having fun, doing their best, the coaches either don't care or spend sufficient time to correct this detraction.  But a word has been created to describe it and that word is gaper.    

A young man age 28-32 came to me for a lesson several weeks ago.....he was standing in the L7 area.   Had nice equipment (new), nice clothes (new) and a good attitude; he knew the right things to say when I talked him up.   test 1:   He could not ski a light blue without a fully developed breaking wedge for the entire turn. He was either a liar or fully unaware of his skills.     test 2: When I met him, I pointed out that his POC helmet was on backwards; he wrote that off as having never worn a helmet before.     test 3: When I asked if I could ski him down to base or find him another group where he might find more sucess, he took mild offense and demanded to remain within the group. I offered a full refund or lesson later that day with in an  appropriate level/terrain.  He did not mind effectively forcing the other two group members to be relegated to ski terrain we might otherwise not have and to wait on him.    

I:)skiing wrote

   test 2: When I met him, I pointed out that his POC helmet was on backwards; he wrote that off as having never worn a helmet before.    

How in the hell do you put your helmet on backwards and not know it

Call your local Applebee's and demand to know why the glades aren't open!

campgottagopee wrote

I:)skiing wrote

   test 2: When I met him, I pointed out that his POC helmet was on backwards; he wrote that off as having never worn a helmet before.    

How in the hell do you put your helmet on backwards and not know it

Trust me.....all I could do not to laugh. Honestly just felt sorry, thinking maybe his kids (like mine) drive me nuts some time.    Even more outrageous,  it was buckled tight under his chin.  Think about that or even give it a try.   Think about that goggle gap.....  

I:)skiing wrote

campgottagopee wrote

I:)skiing wrote

   test 2: When I met him, I pointed out that his POC helmet was on backwards; he wrote that off as having never worn a helmet before.    

How in the hell do you put your helmet on backwards and not know it

Trust me.....all I could do not to laugh. Honestly just felt sorry, thinking maybe his kids (like mine) drive me nuts some time.    Even more outrageous,  it was buckled tight under his chin.  Think about that or even give it a try.   Think about that goggle gap.....

That amazes me.....just when you think you've heard/seen it all THIS happens

Anything is possible:

I had no idea that was possible.  I think that could be very dangerous.

I have put the wrong ski on the wrong foot, but as soon as you do it, it is quite obvious.

Harvey wrote

I had no idea that was possible.  I think that could be very dangerous.

Probably works better going switch into the jumps

Me and the kids have done this from time to time (put skis on backwards) to have fun.     It is actually a bit tricky to get the lug of your heel in the toe piece.  My daugter was messing around this weekend and put her twin tips on backwards and began skiing like this until I advised her it was dangerous.      I would love to: 1) see the video of her struggling to get these on.  2) the look on her face when she realizes she has done this.  I will say that I smile and know how much I am valued as I volunteer (just about) to teach awesome, naive, folks like this.   Depending on her outlook and attitude, I might reach out and give her a hug....."its ok,hun we all have done it"      

However or whoever this is and will no ill-intent, they make "gaper" of the day.    By the looks of her, I am thinking she likes the fountains more than the tubes at the water park.

My first blush impression of this person is that she is a lady.   I guess it could be a guy.    Maybe it's Pat from SNL.    

   

Harvey wrote

I have put the wrong ski on the wrong foot, but as soon as you do it, it is quite obvious.

That's a Tele specific problem, and a 75mm Tele specific problem, at that.

Good grief, let's try to get this thread back on track...

Coach Z wrote

I did see your comments about the 4 flights of stairs at Stateside.  If you forget sometime in your car not fun.

What is that steel structure they are building next to the stairs?  Why can't you ski down that slope to avoid the stairs?

So why aren't they doing the expansion?

As a pass buying local I'd be really pissed over the lift lines and speed they run every weekend.  Are you guys getting vocal with management?  Do they care?

The stairs at Jay Stateside are truly awful and probably the biggest design flaw of the building. The fun part is going up to rack your skis and then going back down a level. If you go up the stairs, you'll notice there is an entrance to the main floor halfway up the stairs. I put my skis down there, head inside to boot up, and then finish up the stairs to get to the Bonnie when I am ready to ski.

The steel structure next to the Statehouse Lodge is a ampitheatre during the non-winter months for outdoor concerts. I think they do a big jam band festival there.

The expansion has been an on again off again much discussed better never executed thing. A "nice to have" but not a "must have". It could really expand their blue square grooming terrain, a short fall at Jay. And it would add some more nice low angle woods to take the pressure off the extra traffic in Jay's already fine lines. But it would cost a huge amount of money. We are talking multiple lifts, two peaks with trails, etc. And how much more revenue and skier traffic would it bring? Probably not enough to pay for it.

Getting vocal with management? Long lines? Speed they run? Sorry, Coach. You ski a different Jay Peak than I do. There are occasionally long lines but more often than not, Jay doesn't have long lines unless it is a forecasted weekend powder day. There are a lot more people on the mountain and things get tracked out faster but when I think of mountains with consistently long lines, Jay Peak is not a mountain that I think of. As you found out, sometimes Jay Peak is the suck, it can truly be the worst mountain in the east to ski at some days. And other days it is the best. I think Jay's Operation crew is solid, I have not a single complaint with Jay Peak on mountain operations. Jay opens trails in thin cover faster than any other mountain and it is a very liberal place. But Jay can be a brutal mountain. I don't see that as management's fault, they can't control that and maybe they make a bad call when they don't understand what the mountain is throwing at them, it happens everywhere.

Coach Z wrote

Why can't you use the eb5 money for the new expansion?  That would require a new base lodge = lots of jobs.

Also they should be able to make a case that skiing improvement are needed to support the additional condo units

EB5 needs to create year round full time jobs and lots of them. Any on mountain improvements including new lifts and new terrain would not contribute any new jobs. A new lodge would not be built for the expansion, maybe a warming hut at best that would be limited seasonal staff. Construction jobs would not be permanent part time. That is why you won't see EB5 money being spent on the mountain. The water park, ice rink, hotels, and condos all created year round jobs. It boggles my mind where they found all the people to work those jobs. The NEK is economically depressed for sure but it doesn't have a large population either and I haven't seen seasonal imports on the front lines. If there is one group of stakeholders that has really benefited from the JPR build out it is definitely locals looking for front line service jobs.

River

Where you there this past Friday and Saturday?

Worst lift lines I waited in all year including Xmas and Pres. week

Was that a one off or a regular thing?  Do you ski three on weekends or just mid week?

Stateside lodge is possibly the worst designed lodge built in the last 20 years.  Had the architect ever designed a ski lodge or even visited one before?  Those stairs are just plain stupid.

Sounds like they're in need of a cabrio lift to get people from the parking lot to the lodge.

Coach Z wrote

River

Where you there this past Friday and Saturday?

Worst lift lines I waited in all year including Xmas and Pres. week

Was that a one off or a regular thing?  Do you ski three on weekends or just mid week?

Stateside lodge is possibly the worst designed lodge built in the last 20 years.  Had the architect ever designed a ski lodge or even visited one before?  Those stairs are just plain stupid.

I only ski on the weekends unless it is a powder day. I was a pass holder at Jay for three years with 20+ days each of those seasons and Jay is my most frequently skied area with almost a hundred total days. Whatever you experienced is not a normal thing, especially in April. I can't explain it. You are right, I wasn't there. And without seeing what was happening with operations that day... I can't explain it. I was at MRG on Saturday and the Single line was no more than 5 minutes, I am sure mid-station loading was possible for at least an hour during the morning. Why Jay would have lines is beyond me except clearly there was an operational issue with the Freezer if they were only loading every other chair... but that still shouldn't back the lift up unless another lift was offline.

The stairs are horrendous. But I don't think that was the designers fault. Before the lodge was built, the Bonnie load station was further downhill. There was always a small walk up to the Bonnie. But when they moved the load terminal uphill, it made things kinda stupid. But they probably didn't want to eat up parking spots, either. Almost makes a guy long for stinky bathrooms...

Yes! Level the whole thing and bring back Stateside!