The Raising and decline of Jay Peak

Coach Z wrote

Little other things like the lifties not bothering or attempting to clean the ice off the chairs were also very apparent.

Wow, you are going to take it to the lifties now? Maybe you caught them at a bad time. I get some of the best bumps at Jay. The guys and gals working the Bonnie always amaze me with their effort to swing that chair just right. Jet is a PITA chair to load with closely spaced chairs... the guys over there are usually high energy and a lot of fun. I don't ride the Metro much but those guys and gals are constantly working it due to lower skilled skiers... that chair can't be easy to bump either.

I get that maybe Jay made a bad call on the grooming, perhaps they got caught off guard by a forecast that changed at the last minute. Or maybe Ops maybe a poor call. Sucks. But I can guarantee no one made that call expecting things to be piss poor and alienate long term patrons.

But I don't get ragging on the lifties at Jay. Again, maybe you had a 1 out of 100 day bad experience. But I rank Jay lifties pretty damn high.

^ Like the red-haired dreadlocked dude that usually works the Jet? That guy's stoke level is off the charts, he always has something humourous to say and does a fine job managing the lineup.

The instructor in me wants everyone to have fun skiing so I do feel for folks when condition make it tough for them.  They will leave the nice woods to us but they do help pay to keep the costs down.  It's good Jays biz is good but the infrastructure and management need to be up to the tasks of handling those numbers and skier types.

Why is the expansion on hold?  It can't be for lack of EB5 funds.  All of the upper class of China is trying to get out of dodge with the gov coming down on them lately.  I haven't heard anything about this.  Do tell?

You must be Scotty Jacks VT twin.  The attitude that you don't want lifts to run so you can skin and keep the pow to yourselves is not good for the sport.

Jay has plenty of trails and doesn't need any more at the expense of good trees.  What it needs are decent lifts.  If you have the money to move a lift to build a huge hotel you better put in a HSQ not the same 30 yr old fixed grip that has to slow down every time a kid loads it.  And thousands of HSQ world wide seem to be able to run when it's snowing out without running every other chair - what the heck was that about?

WF lifties always seem to take the time to wack the chair when it's icy.  When that does not happen it's not bad lifties it's bad management.  Take the liftie looking at his iPad for the tickets and get him to clean the darn chairs off.  It's not rocket science it's called guest service.  Once the chairs are clear he can go back to his iPad.

Coach Z wrote

You must be Scotty Jacks VT twin.  The attitude that you don't want lifts to run so you can skin and keep the pow to yourselves is not good for the sport.

This attitude is terrible for the sport.  Anyone in their right mind would want the lifts to run so that skiers could get to the powder and ski it.  That way those people that were able to get up there on the lift had an amazing powder day and they want to return.  What if you drove 6 hours to go to Jay Peak and were lucky enough to be there on a powder day?  If the lifts ran and you were able to get up the mountain for the powder, you'd be really happy and want to come back and hope to catch another.  If the lifts stayed on wind hold and you couldn't get up to the powder, but a few people decided to skin up and have it to themselves, wouldn't most people be pissed that there was a foot of snow that no one could get to?  They might be hesitant to come back then.

Coach Z wrote

What it needs are decent lifts.  If you have the money to move a lift to build a huge hotel you better put in a HSQ not the same 30 yr old fixed grip that has to slow down every time a kid loads it.  And thousands of HSQ world wide seem to be able to run when it's snowing out without running every other chair - what the heck was that about?

That hotel cost way more than a typical HSQ would cost.  Lets say the hotel cost 20 million and a HSQ would cost 6 million.  Do the lift first.  It is also a myth that a HSQ can't run in high winds when a fixed grip lift can.  HSQ's in many cases actually do better.  This is because the higher speed can be used to drive the chairs right through the wind without swinging them around.  Doppelmayr offers a high wind chair design as well which Jay Peak would benefit from.  The chairs are twice as heavy and have a plastic slotted backrest instead of the standard aluminum one with a back pad.

I propose the following lift upgrades.  Add a bubble 6-pack to replace the flyer.  That would keep people out of the wind on a lift that wasn't the tram making the skiing more enjoyable.  Another common myth is that bubble chairs can't run in high winds.  This is also wrong.  The bubble chairs are super heavy and weigh about 1,400 pounds for a 6-pack chair.  They are also very aerodynamic with the bubble down.  I rode the one at Okemo and the wind was ripping at the top.  Still, the chairs didn't swing at all.  Relocate the flyer to replace the Bonnie lift and now you've got a HSQ there.

if the wind was "ripping" at Okemo you could basically double it and that'd be what Jay had.

snoloco wrote

Coach Z wrote

You must be Scotty Jacks VT twin.  The attitude that you don't want lifts to run so you can skin and keep the pow to yourselves is not good for the sport.

This attitude is terrible for the sport.  

One could argue that pushing 2400 pph up the hill to track out the powder in 20 minutes is also bad

Sno

Lets not go too crazy here

A bubble 6 pack is also a huge sail that will get shut down more often regardless how much they weigh.

Another lift that starts around Kcokamo and runs out of that wind tunnel on the flyer would be a good idea.  That way you could have a way to avoid the flats on that part of the Mt and avoid the bottom spreading the crowds out.  It would set the stage for an eventual expansion in that direction.  Use the Bonnie and replace that with a high wind HSQ.  Make sure it's located so that you could ski from the top of the Metro to it on high wind days.

Since the majority of the lodging guests can't ski powder that really isn't a real issue.  Groome the crap out of the blues and greens.  They will leave the pow to those that can.

skimore wrote

snoloco wrote

Coach Z wrote

You must be Scotty Jacks VT twin.  The attitude that you don't want lifts to run so you can skin and keep the pow to yourselves is not good for the sport.

This attitude is terrible for the sport.  

One could argue that pushing 2400 pph up the hill to track out the powder in 20 minutes is also bad

I often thought of going to Jay but the 6 hour drive and all of the great places to ski between here and there make it a no-go.  So for me this review is helpful.

Coach Z wrote

Since the majority of the lodging guests can't ski powder that really isn't a real issue.  Groome the crap out of the blues and greens.  They will leave the pow to those that can.

BS. Go to Jay, Stowe or anywhere similar on a powder day with lifts running full capacity and it's powder hr.......if you're lucky

I've skied maybe 10 days at Jay, so I'm far from an expert.  My last visit was a 3-day trip two years ago with the family.  All of my previous visits were 8 to 10 years before that (pre "improvements).  For me and my family, the top reasons to visit Jay are snow and terrain (specifically the trees).  The water park is great, but it's strictly an amenity that allows us to hedge our bets, a nice bonus but not the primary reason to visit.  The lodging is great (and generally reasonably priced), but all the development does make me wonder if Jay has gone a step or three too far and is in danger of killing the goose that laid the golden egg.  Coach Z makes some excellent suggestions for improving the lifts, but will increasing the uphill capacity just dump more and more people at the top, degrading the experience for everyone?  I don't think Jay has been "ruined" yet, but I think they need to manage things very carefully going forward. I'm not willing to throw in the towel and give up on Jay yet, not by a long shot.

ml242 wrote

if the wind was "ripping" at Okemo you could basically double it and that'd be what Jay had.

The wind was at a level that I would not have wanted to ride a non bubble chairlift in that location.  The chairs on that lift didn't even budge, it could run easily in the same winds the flyer runs in now.  Mount Snow has the same exact lift as well.  There are days that the bubble chair can run, but the HSQ next to it can't due to wind.  They are aerodynamic and do well in wind.

skimore wrote

One could argue that pushing 2400 pph up the hill to track out the powder in 20 minutes is also bad

If that's the view you have, then don't go to a ski resort!!!

Another thing about the Doppelmayr high wind chairs.  They can only be used on high speed lifts, or a fixed grip with a load carpet.  They are too heavy for the lifties to swing the chair on loading.  Skyline at Sugarloaf has them (FGQ with carpet load) as well as Little Cloud and Gad 2 at Snowbird (HSQ's).

Coach Z wrote

Another lift that starts around Kcokamo and runs out of that wind tunnel on the flyer would be a good idea.  That way you could have a way to avoid the flats on that part of the Mt and avoid the bottom spreading the crowds out.  It would set the stage for an eventual expansion in that direction.  Use the Bonnie and replace that with a high wind HSQ.  Make sure it's located so that you could ski from the top of the Metro to it on high wind days.

Great idea that has been discussed at length, even with awesome Google Earth-based schematic diagrams, in this thread:
Jay-Peak-Conceptual-Development-Plan

Coach and Snoloco, you should probably read the whole thread, there is a lot of passion and good background there you will find interesting.

Sorry to Harv for sending people to another forum but it is relevant to this discussion.

snoloco wrote

If that's the view you have, then don't go to a ski resort!!!

I don't many times, but wind holds can be advantageous instead of whining about them

wind hold day at Jay

Everglade...we got 2 laps in there before it got touched

Bird
Me thinks you are flipping me the Bird by telling me to read thru 75 pages of forum dodo

The first 5 or 10 pages had the interesting plans then I skipped to the end and read backwards for awhile to see how it ended.  Seems like this us never going to happen unless they can make a case with the Feds bean counters that without more skiing there can not be any more hotels or condos.  Tell them to call me as a witness and I'll set em straight.

It's seems to be a tiny trail connecting what will sort of be a separate ski area with a transfer lift ala Sugarbush.  I hope that connector is not going to slice right thru beaver pond and andre's which I think are some of the best glade skiing on the planet.  Is the new zone even worth it?  It doesn't look all that steep?

I don't see what is holding things up unless it's just $$$.  Can you fill me in please?

While more terrian is always nice I think upgrading the Bonnie to a HSQ and then using that quad to upgrade the Jet would do the trick.  Plus get a few cats and someone in management that understands grooming and there ya go.

Coach Z wrote

Bird
Me thinks you are flipping me the Bird by telling me to read thru 75 pages of forum dodo

Not my motivation. I'll admit that it is a lot of reading but there is background on the EB5, discussion of lift development and Jay Peak passion that I genuinely thought you might find interesting. I'll admit that I went back to try and find the relevant posts to your proposed lift idea and couldn't find them. From_the_NEK posted some great drawings and we had it all mapped out. They are in there somewhere. Or was there another thread?

And they are are very short pages on AZ.

I did see your comments about the 4 flights of stairs at Stateside.  If you forget sometime in your car not fun.

What is that steel structure they are building next to the stairs?  Why can't you ski down that slope to avoid the stairs?

So why aren't they doing the expansion?

As a pass buying local I'd be really pissed over the lift lines and speed they run every weekend.  Are you guys getting vocal with management?  Do they care?

snoloco wrote

Glade:  You should go there and find out what the GS ratio is rather than flaming me on this site.  Those who have always say that it is slanted more toward the S than the G.  How about you just don't post anything if all you are ever going to do you is flame everyone.  I'm pretty sure you are going to say something to insult me for posting this.  Oh wait, your posts are limited, so this is your final one today.  You won't be able to tell me to f**k myself till tomorrow.

Guest what Loco?  It's tomorrow.   Time to fuck youself.  Lol, j/k.  You are actually alright and I like your stoke.  It's not your fault you are a spoiled rich kid.  But, it is hard not to pick on you about it once in a while.  

In all honesty, I'm just jealous of where you are at in skiing and where you've been at your age.  I still hadn't put on a pair of skis for another 6 or 7 years beyond the age you are at now.  But, if you keep it up you could be doing lots of cool stuff when you are older.

You could even be a little Glade Runner if you start hitting those glades and bumps now.  Get up to Killington late when all that is left is Superstar and you have to ride bumps all day long.  That will help you get to where you need to be and I'm sure we will all hear less whining from you in the future about bumps.  

By the way, I may hit Stowe for the first time next week.  I hear they dropped lift ticket prices for the rest of the season to $59.

http://vtdigger.org/2014/07/27/vtdigger-exclusive-jay-peak-loses-trust-first-eb-5-investors/

This was a very interesting article on the EB-5 program at JP.

Props to Coach for posting this as I believe this issue is on the minds of many.

IMO Jay has survived in the past because of the snow and terrain. Distance/location is a huge factor in skiing.

For most of the US population which must be at least half their market (guessing) Jay is farther then some incredible resorts, Jay has fought this with it's natural advantages and big discounts on lodging, tix etc.

What is happening is a somewhat predictable result of EB5.  As mentioned earlier you can't use the money for lift etc.

Coach the day you were at Jay the weather was difficult and on top of it there were hundreds of British kids learning the sport for the first time. Everybody has a bad day and sometimes it ain't your fault. I wasn't there but maybe this was the case.

The ski business is a little different.  I work for a marketing company and if we make a decision to improve our financial position there is no passionate group of devotees to analyze or critique our success or failure.