The Raising and decline of Jay Peak

nepa wrote

As you said... every sport has an equivalent to gaper.  So I should probably start singling out the less fortunate kids in other sports too... right Dad?

I'm a bowling Gaper - rental gear, horrible technique, usually drunk. Snoloco probably owns me in bowling.

raisingarizona wrote

A gaper is someone that is completely out of their element but still wants to believe that the world revolves around them and their own shit smells like flowers.

They are gaping at the scenery and culture they are not accustomed to.

A tourist is a gaper but the term is more often applied to the person that is a fish out of water but has an ego so large that they refuse to be humble and then they act better and often treat the service industry people in a resort town very poorly. These people become so annoying that we use the word gaper to relieve ourselves from punching someone right in the face.

Working service jobs in ski towns you develop a love/hate for the tourists. Yes you need them to survive but some of them make it unbearable. I really can't stand arrogant gapers.

Generally tho it's a pretty light hearted term.

I think RA and Harv are onto something

There comes a point at the end of the season when locals just want to say enough with the tourist crap already.  We all know that the area depends on thier spending but we want our mt, town, bar etc. back.

It usually is even worse for me late summer when one more minivan going 35 mph thru the notch gaping at the river all the way to LP oblivious of people behind them that have schedules to keep will totally set me off into a lather.

Gaper is a term used by insecure individuals who feel the need to denigrate others to boost their own self confidence.

I never took a lesson in my life. Are you calling me a gaper? Keep digging

Coach Z wrote

I think RA and Harv are onto something

There comes a point at the end of the season when locals just want to say enough with the tourist crap already.  We all know that the area depends on thier spending but we want our mt, town, bar etc. back.

It usually is even worse for me late summer when one more minivan going 35 mph thru the notch gaping at the river all the way to LP oblivious of people behind them that have schedules to keep will totally set me off into a lather.

Isn't there an old tried and true term for those people? -- like "asshole."

I have friends that might qualify as gapers by some definitions, but they manage to keep up and don't get in anyone's way. They have fun and they don't ruin anyone else's experience, so making fun of them is simply gratuitous.

Now the inconsiderate people who think the universe revolves around them . . . that's a different story.

mattchuck2 wrote

nepa wrote

As you said... every sport has an equivalent to gaper.  So I should probably start singling out the less fortunate kids in other sports too... right Dad?

I'm a bowling Gaper - rental gear, horrible technique, usually drunk. Snoloco probably owns me in bowling.

I'm a golf gaper... no wait, that's a hacker.  Maybe we should ban that too  

Seriously, I understand our culture (both within the sport, and nationally).  Making fun of people is entertainment.  This is happening everywhere, and I don't think it will ever change.  Putting other people down is human nature.  I am by no means above it.  I'm a relentless ball buster.  Hell, I will even go on record and say I have my fair share of prejudices.  As I get older,  I'm getting pretty freakin judgmental.

MC.  As a 41 year old, if I call you a Gaper, it will have a completely different impact than a 15 yr old putting down a 13 yr old.  When adults do it, it's called ball busting... no big deal.

I think it really becomes a problem when this behavior manifests itself in youth culture.  Kids more often than not are not using the term light heartedly.  If as an adult, you use the term to single out someone who does not have good technique, then you're not leading by example.  In my opinion, we have to be careful.  Some kids are pretty f'd up these days.  We could be 1 Gaper away from the first mass ski area shooting.  If it happens at school, why couldn't it happen at the mountain?

nepa wrote

Fair enough.  Obviously, You & I are different ends of the spectrum.

Not at all.  The disagreement is contained in this statement:

nepa wrote

isn't "Gaper" kind of like the ski-universe incarnation of the "N" word?  It just sounds very ski supremacist to me...

The "N" word is full of hatred, violence and oppression.  It's a word I will never use in any context.  The term "Gaper" doesn't even come close, and I've never heard the term used with anything close to that level of hatred.

It's not cool to make fun of anyone (and by the way that "Dad, look at that Gaper over there.  Me and all my friends... we hate Gapers." dialogue you constructed is completely unacceptable), but I think there's bigger fish to fry than calling for a ban on the term "Gaper."

Adk Jeff wrote

The "N" word is full of hatred, violence and oppression.  It's a word I will never use in any context.  The term "Gaper" doesn't even come close, and I've never heard the term used with anything close to that level of hatred.

Your interpretation of the difference is 100% correct.  I'd be a fool to disagree with anything you have said, and I certainly do not.  I still think, on some levels, especially when kids use it, the term stinks in a similar way.  

Adk Jeff wrote

(and by the way that dialogue you constructed is completely unacceptable)
 

For what it's worth, I meant it to be hyperbole.  I apologize if you found it disrespectful.

G - guaranteed
A - accident
P - prone
E - every
R - run

Or some such crap.     It's important to remember we were all beginners once, in all things in life.

So does Jay suck or not ?

  I don't know about all the ranting and shouting about gapers and bad skiers and riders . I ski for other reasons than most of you on here . Read my signature on the bottom. You will never see a trip report of me going solo to Europe ,Colorado  or anywhere else. I ski for Quality time with my family.  Jay peak sounds like a place where families could start the tradition of family skiing along with a little variety. So yeah the lifts will stop people are gonna fall but someone among all  those familes  lifelong rippers are  born!

Gunny J wrote

You will never see a trip report of me going solo to Europe ,Colorado  or anywhere else. I ski for Quality time with my family.  

One doesn't rule out the other.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Gunny J wrote

You will never see a trip report of me going solo to Europe ,Colorado  or anywhere else. I ski for Quality time with my family.  

One doesn't rule out the other.

I totally agree with James.  As someone that works full-time, midweek days, I don't think it is possible to ski more with your kids than I do.  Yet, I would still love and treasure a solo trip or a boys trip with my buddies. In fact, I am super psyched for a boys trip next weekend.  

Scersk wrote

Smuggs and Bolton Valley are probably the only other "corporate" places on our list, but both felt less corporate than Jay—Bolton probably because it's still struggling to get to Jay's level (an ominous note there) and Smuggs because it's just so obviously about the skiing.

 

I have to disagree ,Smuggs is ALL about the skiing,no HSQ ,not a bunch of parallel  cut trails.Bolton didn't feel all corporate to me either. When I think corporate mts I think Okemo,Stratton,Mt Snow.

freeheeln wrote

Scersk wrote

Smuggs and Bolton Valley are probably the only other "corporate" places on our list, but both felt less corporate than Jay—Bolton probably because it's still struggling to get to Jay's level (an ominous note there) and Smuggs because it's just so obviously about the skiing.

I have to disagree ,Smuggs is ALL about the skiing,no HSQ ,not a bunch of parallel  cut trails.Bolton didn't feel all corporate to me either. When I think corporate mts I think Okemo,Stratton,Mt Snow.

Sorry, I probably didn't translate that thought into words as clearly as I should have.

First off, I probably shouldn't have used "corporate" to describe what I was talking about. Let's call it "developed" instead. Jay Peak (for profit) is developed; Whiteface (by law) is not.

So, both Bolton and Smuggs are developed, in the sense that there are lodging options (rental and "residential") and (multiple) dining options at the base(s). I very much enjoyed our day at Bolton—great "warm-up" mountain, like Titus with a lot more vertical. But there seems to be a push there to renovate and expand, or at least I picked up some inkling of that. Granted, that base hotel looks like something straight out of the 1960s ski-brutalist architecture handbook, so I understand the impetus. I just have real reservations about how development ends up proceeding just about anywhere these days. With Smuggs, even though the base of Morse feels "developed," the combination of the trails, lifts, and the (super retro) lodge at the base of Madonna "refocuses" me when I head back to that side of the mountain. Something about how the lodging is spread around the base of Morse seems very sensitive as well, perhaps because there are no McMansions hiding in the trees, at least that I can see. I agree—completely—that Smuggs is all about the skiing. In my top 5 (for overall experience) of the places I've skied—no problem. (In no particular order, Burke, Gore, Whiteface, Smuggs, MRG. By the way, the new hotel has me a bit worried about Burke.)

"Corporate" is something different. Although Urban Dictionary is by no means my typical go-to, I like the definition there:

Oppressively awful in that numbingly "cubicle in a hermetically-sealed office" kind of way: lacking good quality, morality or ethics, excellence, creativity, spontaneity, kindness, love, integrity, beauty, or intrinsic worth and meaning, i.e. corporate

For me, the word describes anyplace that reminds me a bit of Applebee's—you know, your "neighborhood" chain, institutional restaurant? What particularly makes me want to vomit about Applebee's is how they try to associate themselves with "neighborhood" values, turning one of the things that helps us to identify and create a sense of place directly on its head. Yeah, I'll head down to my "neighborhood" Applebee's for some jalapeño poppers after picking up my kid from her school factory. Maybe later we'll all head down to the multiplex to see Cars 2.

So, Smuggs is developed but doesn't feel corporate. I worry that Bolton is becoming corporate. (Burke too, but it'll never truly suck as long as that wonderful bar in the newly "mid-mountain" lodge stays the same. And, actually, the Sherburne lodge is pretty damn well done.) Jay feels corporate. And I thank my lucky stars (and the taxpayers of New York) that Gore and Whiteface can never become corporate. I understand the need to be viable economically, but you don't have to suck the life out of a place to do so.

nepa wrote

Adk Jeff wrote

(and by the way that dialogue you constructed is completely unacceptable)
 

For what it's worth, I meant it to be hyperbole.  I apologize if you found it disrespectful.

No apology necessary.  What I meant was that I would consider a dialogue like the one you constructed to be unacceptable.  I wouldn't tolerate it from my kids for one second.

Scersk wrote

For me, the word describes anyplace that reminds me a bit of Applebee's—you know, your "neighborhood" chain, institutional restaurant? What particularly makes me want to vomit about Applebee's is how they try to associate themselves with "neighborhood" values, turning one of the things that helps us to identify and create a sense of place directly on its head. Yeah, I'll head down to my "neighborhood" Applebee's for some jalapeño poppers after picking up my kid from her school factory. Maybe later we'll all head down to the multiplex to see Cars 2.

And I thank my lucky stars (and the taxpayers of New York) that Gore and Whiteface can never become corporate. I understand the need to be viable economically, but you don't have to suck the life out of a place to do so.

I couldn't agree more!  

Coach, you should have someone w/ PR experience review your content before posting....  

Jay is not for me anymore.  It's applebees on steroids!  

raisingarizona wrote

I really can't stand arrogant gapers.

Generally tho it's a pretty light hearted term.

I'm sure you have issues with arrogant people and any level of arrogance regardless of stereotype.  I too am very adverse to arrogance.  It's on the same level as greed.  We'd be better off without both!    

nepa wrote

Let me frame it as a parenting problem.  Your children are obviously very capable skiers.  Let's say you are riding up the lift with them, and one of them says:

 Dad, look at that Gaper over there.  Me and all my friends... we hate Gapers.  They ruin it for the elitists like us.  We love making fun of Gapers almost as much as we love skiing.  Me and a bunch of my friends are going to use humiliation and intimidation tactics to single that Gaper out... we don't want that Gaper to feel welcome... In fact, we want to mentally scar that Gaper... Hopefully if we make that Gaper feel shitty enough, he'll never come back.  It's OK to do that... right Dad?  As you said... every sport has an equivalent to gaper.  So I should probably start singling out the less fortunate kids in other sports too... right Dad? 

What would be your response?  Obviously, you're going to say it's not OK... right?

To be honest, I understand what you are saying.  We're all human.  We're all different.  Unfortunately, for some humans, singling others out, and making them feel like shit is their nature.  

It's a stretch, but it's in the same league...

OK.  I get this and appreciate where you are coming from.  fine line between ball busting/bullying.  

mattchuck2 wrote

nepa wrote

As you said... every sport has an equivalent to gaper.  So I should probably start singling out the less fortunate kids in other sports too... right Dad?

I'm a bowling Gaper - rental gear, horrible technique, usually drunk. Snoloco probably owns me in bowling.

It's super easy to be a "gaper" at bowling. It's one of the hardest sports to be good at. Anyone who disagree's has never been.

hey campgottago"gaper" - bowling and golf are not sports!