The Raising and decline of Jay Peak

Weighing in on the original thread topic, I'll agree, to some extent, with Coach Z. Jay is… not my favorite mountain, and I think my slight dislike for it has everything to do with the development and the kind of skiers/vacationers it's attracting.

Mrs. Scersk and I have been twice in the last two years. (O Fox44 card, how I love thee!) Last year, freezing rain and fog resulted in tiny ball bearings sitting on icy snow and iced goggles, and there were clouds everywhere. Of course, within minutes of packing it in a bit earlier than usual, the "Jay Cloud" blew off and it looked great. (Argh!) This year, we went rather early in the season. Great coverage, snow throughout the day, and the skiing was excellent. (Probably helped that, though surely I am what most of you would consider a "gaper," I turned into a solid intermediate over the course of last season. After being frustrated last year by low visibility and icy goggles, Mrs. Scersk, a far better skier than me, enjoyed the skiing very much this year.)

Yet, there were problems both days. Last year, we went on a Saturday. I think it was sometime around Mardi Gras; thus, there were a bunch of drunks. Now, I'm not a teetotaler by any means whatsoever, but skiers should keep it under control until they pack it in for the day. There was overt drinking in the lift lines, and well… it's not the Creek, ladies and gentlemen. Staff should be on that. But the "Mardi Gras" vibe was being promoted all over the mountain, so perhaps I was the one there on the wrong day. This year, we went midweek, so there was an obviously different vibe. But the Flyer Express wasn't running for whatever reason, so a lot of the mountain was pretty difficult to access; indeed, you had to take the tram to get to some trails, for example, Ullr's and Wedelmaster. I negotiated Northway off the tram just fine; of course, we had waited for the shitshow to move on before heading down. There were many skiers and riders getting off that tram that had no business being up there, and I'm not taking a header off the backside of Jay just because some idiot wants the "Jay Experience."

So, that's where I intersect with the topic of this thread. Now, I have no idea what Jay was like before all this development, but the "Jay Experience" to me feels highly corporate—more about the amenities than about the skiing. Even basing ourselves at Stateside this year, something just felt wrong. We've been to a bunch of mountains over the last two years—30 days, 21 different mountains, in fact. (Let's just say we're natural wanderers still looking for a home.) Smuggs and Bolton Valley are probably the only other "corporate" places on our list, but both felt less corporate than Jay—Bolton probably because it's still struggling to get to Jay's level (an ominous note there) and Smuggs because it's just so obviously about the skiing. The other comparable, Whiteface, is just in a different league because of Lake Placid and how development is limited.

To me, there's an easy fix, but it involves going directly against one of the iconic parts of the "Jay Experience." In discussing it, I'd like to bring Whiteface back into the discussion by adding to this exchange between mattchuck2 and Coach Z:

mattchuck2 wrote

Whiteface is Jay Peak without the 300" of snow, awesome tree skiing, tremendous side country, fun waterpark, and on hill dining & lodging options.

One of those mountains is your favorite and now you hate the other one? They're both cold, icy and attract a pretty good share of "gapers". In spring, because they are both cold and icy, the conditions are generally a crapshoot. And every time I've been to Whiteface lately, there's a very high "Gaper" population.

I figure it's due to a few reasons:
1. People coming to LP for a winter sports vacation where skiing is one of the many activities
2. The layout of the mountain, which puts all the gapers on full display all over the mountain, especially on Lower Valley, Upper Valley, Excelsior/Victoria/Northway, Wilmington trail, etc. (at Gore, if you avoid the Sunway/Wild Air/Sleighride area, you're in pretty good shape).
3. Blue trails that are difficult by the standards of other mountains. This is true at Jay as well, and Whiteface uses it as part of its marketing.
4. Whiteface is more famous than Gore and listed on many more Ski Magazine ratings, etc.

mattchuck2 wrote

Coach Z wrote

Jay now is way more crowded compared to WF and unless you just are skiing the Facelift area or excelsior the level of skiing I see at WF is darn high.

No way. Have you skied the Wilmington Trail? Have you taken the Mountain Run double and looked at the lunatics who ski Mountain Run way too fast for their ability?

Yeah, on a given day, Jay might be more crowded than WF, but the layout of the mountain does a better job of separating the "gapers" from me, especially because the trees are usually an option. The trees are not in play as much at WF, and the trail layout means that I ski in the vicinity of poor skiing almost everywhere I go.

So, as I've stated above, I'm an OK skier. Not a gaper in attitude, but some of you'd probably identify me as such by my cautious skiing. (I'd like to think that I'm cautious and considerate, but I probably stop, on occasion, in places that piss some hotshots off.) That's OK, let me be the "voice of the intermediate" here:

Jay Peak has a "tram problem."

A "tram (or gondola) (or express) problem" is where a resort has a somewhat badly sited lift that is has to run because otherwise the resort crowd will stomp up and down and feel "cheated." These are iconic lifts, like the trams at Jay and Cannon, like the gondolas at Gore and Whiteface. You can just hear, "But I wanna ride the TRAM!!!"

Jay has to run the tram, but it shouldn't. Other than Vermonter, which looks like a pretty damn difficult blue to me, and that shitty section of Northway, there's really no reason an intermediate should ride the tram. That's expert territory. And I'd hazard a guess that the true experts can get their jollies from the tops of the Express, the Jet, and the Bonaventure Quad. The tram should be run only when conditions are excellent.

Whiteface has a similar problem. To better spread out intermediates, the Freeway lift should run—always! In six days spread over four years, I've seen it running once. Why? Gotta run the Gondola. Want to know why you see lunatics on Mountain Run? Well, they'd like to get to that nice pod of blues over there, but you can't without hitting the steeps. (I wouldn't do it, but, as I've said, I'd like to think I'm cautious and considerate. I'll ski Mountain Run when it's within my ability, thanks.) I love Lower Parkway, Draper's, and Lower Thruway, but I've only gotten to ski them one day!

So, if Jay is about the skiing and not the "Experience," the next addition to the mountain should be midstation for the Jet or something to replace the Poma they ripped out there long ago. Or the lift from the bottom of Kokomo that Coach Z suggested. But they've got to keep running that tram…

Final assessment: things are changing in our little diad. With a child on the way, we've started to think, "Of all the mountains we've been to, where will we take our future rugrat(s) to learn to ski bigger, steeper stuff after they've gotten competent?" Well, it isn't going to be Jay—waterpark, ice rink, cushy hotels notwithstanding. That's an "Experience" for a different kind of skier. If Jay keeps developing in that direction without changing the skiing product, we'll go midweek when the kids are teens just to ski it once. For longer ski weekends, or a potential cabin location, I'm betting on Smuggs and Gore. Or maybe just Belleayre.

Harvey wrote

Props to Coach for posting this as I believe this issue is on the minds of many.

What is happening is a somewhat predictable result of EB5.  As mentioned earlier you can't use the money for lift etc.

Coach the day you were at Jay the weather was difficult and on top of it there were hundreds of British kids learning the sport for the first time. Everybody has a bad day and sometimes it ain't your fault. I wasn't there but maybe this was the case.

Why can't you use the eb5 money for the new expansion?  That would require a new base lodge = lots of jobs.

Also they should be able to make a case that skiing improvement are needed to support the additional condo units

The Brit kids all left on Friday after skiing.  We saw them lodging on buses with their luggage.  The problem was not the teenage Brits but the families with little kids which are the waterpark families.  That fricking waterpark is what is making the ski experience go down hill.  That is where all the Gapers are coming from.

Wow...I didn't know Jay had done an EB-5 financing (I do that work occassionally on the legal/securities side...).  

Generally, they have to stick to business plan that was approved by USCIS/Regional Center...it's a securities offering, so if they go make big changes to what they do with the proceeds (compared to what was disclosed in the offering documents), it can create problems, in terms of securities liability.  Also, they have to satisfy the job creation component required under the EB-5 program.. (for every investor, X number of jobs must be created).  So...ski related improvements likely would not be helpful in that respect.

On another note, as a Colorado resident, I still miss skiing at Jay on a regular basis.  Sounds like it was an off day, but when that place is good, it's really good.  Some of those lines of the summit ridge, like Pumphouse, are so awesome.

Not sure of all the details Coach, but I am 99.9% sure that they can't use EB5$ for lifts. That's what I was trying to say.

My 2cts-----


I accept all the "gapers" that show up on the hill as the cost of doing business---or skiing for me.    

The more inexperienced skiers, the more money the mountain makes which results in one or all three of the following:  1) more mountain or base investments, 2)  Cheaper lift tickets or special deals.  3) profits for stakeholders--which then ensures the sport.    


In essesence I can see the proverbial forest through the trees.      

Generally these skiers are not on the same slopes as me.   Yes, now and again I have to be in a lift line with them and that sucks.    But I guess the alternative is to hike, or go on less busy days---all in my zone of control.  

Added bonus (1000 points)   while I am no expert skier in my view, seeing a gaper on the slopes gives me that."I too am  Bode" comparision feeling.     Another 1000 points.....sometimes it's just funny.    

Love me some gaper reducing my lift ticket price.......

   

Truth: I am a gaper.


EDIT: I just looked up gaper because I was not really sure what it was.  Definition from Urban Dictionary:

"A gaper is a skier or snowboarder who is completely clueless. Usually distinguished by their bright colored clothes and a gaper gap, the gap between goggles and a helmet/hat. Gapers also do the "Gaper Tuck" which is an attempt at being a ski racer by tucking, however, it is done incorrectly with the poles sticking straight up like thunderbolts and lighting, very very frightening! Gapers also sit at the bottom of jumps and try and go big off table tops in the park."

So maybe not totally. I wear black. I think the gap between helmet and goggles would be good, decreasing condensation. Not sure if I have one or not.  I don't really tuck and don't use the park.

Maybe I am more of a skidder.

It is impossible for a tele skier to be a gaper.

I gotta say this thread makes me want to puke a little bit. I don't care for snobs of any sort. Since I care so much about skiing and the life style that goes with it I really don't care for ski snubs.

People who don't ski a lot still have a right to enjoy the sport without being ridiculed. Plus without them and the money they spend skiing would not exist as we know it and neither would businesses who depend on income generated by people coming to the mountains. Whole mountain communities would die out without "Gapers".

 

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

I gotta say this thread makes me want to puke a little bit. I don't care for snobs of any sort. Since I care so much about skiing and the life style that goes with it I really don't care for ski snubs.

People who don't ski a lot still have a right to enjoy the sport without being ridiculed. Plus without them and the money they spend skiing would not exist as we know it and neither would businesses who depend on income generated by people coming to the mountains. Whole mountain communities would die out without "Gapers".

Very well put.  I couldn't agree more.  I'm not totally familiar with what is going on at Jay, but it sounds like they are making the transformation to a full-service destination resort that offers something for everyone.  Along with that transformation will come a different clientele.

Just my 2 cents: In general, I personally think the term Gaper should be banned.  I know this sounds a bit extreme (and it probably is), but... isn't "Gaper" kind of like the ski-universe incarnation of the "N" word?  It just sounds very ski supremacist to me... like, "if you're not a capable rider, then you're a Gaper, and you're not welcome at my mountain" In my opinion: This terminology singles people out in a derogatory way, and should be frowned upon.

Put yourself in the position of doing something that you are a novice at... and then imagine a bunch of experienced people singling you out... and calling you something like a Gaper.  To me, that feels like shit.

nepa wrote

I know this sounds a bit extreme (and it probably is), but... isn't "Gaper" kind of like the ski-universe incarnation of the "N" word?  It just sounds very ski supremacist to me... like, "if you're not a capable rider, then you're a Gaper, and you're not welcome at my mountain" In my opinion: This terminology singles people out in a derogatory way, and should be frowned upon.

Put yourself in the position of doing something that you are a novice at... and then imagine a bunch of experienced people singling you out... and calling you something like a Gaper.  To me, that feels like shit.

Nah, every sport has an equivalent to "gaper."  Equating the "n" word to Gaper is a bit of a stretch.  More than just a bit, actually, it's in a totally different league.

I was trying to say the same thing in my own way, but I didn't do it very well. Beginners are the life blood of the sport.

I think it's fair to prefer a mountain that that separates beginners from intermediates and experts.  (Belle is great for this).  It gives everyone the space to be themselves.

I was actually in a situation once something like what nepa is describing above.  I went whitewater rafting with a guide who made the (bad IMO) decision let the "bubble" (the surge of water from the dam release) pass us by.  We struggled to get through the exposed rocks, and I tried to help by jumping out when we got hung up.  The guy berated me for not knowing what I was doing. I thought to myself... you are a rafting guide. If everyone was an expert at rafting, you wouldn't have a job.

nepa wrote

I know this sounds a bit extreme (and it probably is), but... isn't "Gaper" kind of like the ski-universe incarnation of the "N" word?  It just sounds very ski supremacist to me... like, "if you're not a capable rider, then you're a Gaper, and you're not welcome at my mountain" In my opinion: This terminology singles people out in a derogatory way, and should be frowned upon.

Put yourself in the position of doing something that you are a novice at... and then imagine a bunch of experienced people singling you out... and calling you something like a Gaper.  To me, that feels like shit.

"Gaper" is more like "dweeb," "dork," "dipshit" or "nerd." Or the term "Herb" that was a popular put-down at Killington about 20-25 years ago. None of those words are in any way as offensive as the "N" word.

Other than that, I agree with you that "gaper" is a shitty thing to say to someone trying to enjoy skiing. It's bullying, plain and simple.

To clarify in case you have not read the whole thread

I have nothing against Gapers.  I teach skiing.  New to sport are not Gapers.  In my book gapers are marginal skiers that are flailing most likely because their buddy or dad taught them to ski. Taking lessons and getting better prevents gaperism.  

I was ranting that Jay didn't groom any greens or blues.  Not for me because I was skiing in the woods but for them.

But the ratio of Gapers to skiers is the issue.  The GS ratio as my son dubbed it.  That affects fixed grip lifts to run slow causing big lift lines.  Plus you have to groom more or it's unsafe.

A gaper is someone that is completely out of their element but still wants to believe that the world revolves around them and their own shit smells like flowers.

They are gaping at the scenery and culture they are not accustomed to.

A tourist is a gaper but the term is more often applied to the person that is a fish out of water but has an ego so large that they refuse to be humble and then they act better and often treat the service industry people in a resort town very poorly. These people become so annoying that we use the word gaper to relieve ourselves from punching someone right in the face.

Working service jobs in ski towns you develop a love/hate for the tourists. Yes you need them to survive but some of them make it unbearable. I really can't stand arrogant gapers.

Generally tho it's a pretty light hearted term.

Adk Jeff wrote

nepa wrote

I know this sounds a bit extreme (and it probably is), but...

Nah, every sport has an equivalent to "gaper."  Equating the "n" word to Gaper is a bit of a stretch.  More than just a bit, actually, it's in a totally different league.

Fair enough.  Obviously, You & I are different ends of the spectrum.

Let me frame it as a parenting problem.  Your children are obviously very capable skiers.  Let's say you are riding up the lift with them, and one of them says:

 Dad, look at that Gaper over there.  Me and all my friends... we hate Gapers.  They ruin it for the elitists like us.  We love making fun of Gapers almost as much as we love skiing.  Me and a bunch of my friends are going to use humiliation and intimidation tactics to single that Gaper out... we don't want that Gaper to feel welcome... In fact, we want to mentally scar that Gaper... Hopefully if we make that Gaper feel shitty enough, he'll never come back.  It's OK to do that... right Dad?  As you said... every sport has an equivalent to gaper.  So I should probably start singling out the less fortunate kids in other sports too... right Dad? 

What would be your response?  Obviously, you're going to say it's not OK... right?

To be honest, I understand what you are saying.  We're all human.  We're all different.  Unfortunately, for some humans, singling others out, and making them feel like shit is their nature.  

It's a stretch, but it's in the same league... Gaper is a term used to single people out and make them feel like shit... What's the purpose of 'N' word?

Harvey wrote

I was actually in a situation once something like what nepa is describing above.  I went whitewater rafting with a guide who made the (bad IMO) decision let the "bubble" (the surge of water from the dam release) pass us by.  We struggled to get through the exposed rocks, and I tried to help by jumping out when we got hung up.  The guy berated me for not knowing what I was doing. I thought to myself... you are a rafting guide. If everyone was an expert at rafting, you wouldn't have a job.

Had a similar situation recently... at the local gun club.  Not a really good place to start an argument.

raisingarizona wrote

Generally tho it's a pretty light hearted term.

Not all of the time... especially when you are talking about social interaction between kids.

What does gaper mean? Not sure we even have agreement.

The relationship between visitors and locals can be complex. I've learned a lot about it by running this site.  You'd be amazed at what happens when you show some respect.

Most of my true friends live in the Adks and Cats.  In my experience people who live simple lives are the most genuine.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

People who don't ski a lot still have a right to enjoy the sport without being ridiculed. Plus without them and the money they spend skiing would not exist as we know it and neither would businesses who depend on income generated by people coming to the mountains. Whole mountain communities would die out without "Gapers".

Yeah, that's why I've been putting "gaper" in quotation marks. Just so people know what I'm talking about, but trying not to contribute to the shitty public ridicule and shaming.

However, I do reserve the right to be upset at dangerous skiers on trails way above their ability level. That is a phenomenon at various mountains I can think of, and I'd like it if people would try to get better at skiing.