The Raising and decline of Jay Peak

Coach Z wrote

If you read other posts I'm not the  guy that loves groomers but yesterday called for grooming even if you have to delay opening parts of the mt to do so.  I've seen WF do that before and it's always been the right call.

i'm not saying you're a "groomer guy", but that if it's too warm it might not make sense. that's all.

Coach Z wrote

I know Jay extremely well and have skied over 40 days there.    The only decent skiing was in the higher north facing glades so we were kind of stuck with the Flyer.  We used the singles line after the first long wait.  The is the coldest chair ride for April anywhere.

I know Jay reasonably well and have skied over 40 years there. I would argue that most runs on the mountain face north, more or less, and those few that don't are shaded by the summit ridge. (note: this is an old topo and shows the old Green Chair, the new Flyer goes higher. But the contours and gridlines haven't changed.)



C'mon Coach, face it. You were there on a bad day.

snoloco wrote

Delaying opening on certain parts of the mountain when it means a dramatically better product is the right thing to do.  

I remember a day at Hunter the last weekend in 12-13 where it r*ined the night before and was supposed to freeze over.  They knew this and posted the night before that they'd be delaying opening till 9:30 to groom.  They actually opened around 9:15.  The next day it also froze over late and they delayed opening on the upper mountain by a half hour to groom more trails.

I have noticed that Okemo sometimes puts certain lifts on hold for grooming so they can get more trails done on one lift.  Then they can get those other sections later and have a better product.  I'm thinking that Coach observed something similar at Whiteface.

Sno, you really are the park city/okemo customer. good thing there are lots of mountains to choose from, I would take the "product" at MRG on a freeze thaw day with nothing but moguls than ski in NJ any time.

Coach Z wrote

Hey I'm happy they are making a profit

My bitch us that they spent all this dough on hotels and water parks and none on what really matters the skiing.  I'm fine with fixed grip lifts but put a crap load or poorly skiing families on them and it just doesn't work.

We were able to find some trees to ski but I felt really bad for these families trying to ski that un groomed boiler plate.  Jay wants that biz but then didn't even groom the green runs.  Never seen that before ever.  100% of Greens and at least half of the blues need to be groomed everyday no exception period!

I hear ya,, good points.

ml242 wrote

Coach Z wrote

If you read other posts I'm not the  guy that loves groomers but yesterday called for grooming even if you have to delay opening parts of the mt to do so.  I've seen WF do that before and it's always been the right call.

i'm not saying you're a "groomer guy", but that if it's too warm it might not make sense. that's all.

It was 20 at the bottom and 15 at the summit
How is that too warm to groom?


Bird
The genesis of this thread started on Fridays blue bird spring day with the long lift lines.  That they screwed the pooch with the grooming made it worse.  Was it a bad day yes but grooming would have made it better.  Face it Jay is off thier game.  Too busy running a lodging biz to run a well run ski area.

Coach Z wrote

Bird
The genesis of this thread started on Fridays blue bird spring day with the long lift lines.  That they screwed the pooch with the grooming made it worse.  Was it a bad day yes but grooming would have made it better.  Face it Jay is off thier game.  Too busy running a lodging biz to run a well run ski area.

Off their game, who knows? I would describe it more as growing pains. Lord knows, I have complained about the development in the past but it is what is and I have moved on. Personally, I see the waterpark as a good way to keep the gapers OFF the hill and contained in a safe environment.

With the lodging package prices being so low this spring Jay is essentially giving the skiing away to fill beds so they can pay back those EB5 loans. If the skiing is free then the management will feel that they do not have to put any effort or cost (like fuel for cats to groom) into it to make it a good product becuase hey the customers are not paying for it after all.

That is the attitude I got from Jay.  Little other things like the lifties not bothering or attempting to clean the ice off the chairs were also very apparent.  It used to be the best run eastern ski area - I posted this in the past.  Just not true anymore.  

Next spring we are going to look elsewhere for that trip.  Maybe Quebec?

Sick Bird Rider wrote

I know Jay reasonably well and have skied over 40 years there. I would argue that most runs on the mountain face north, more or less, and those few that don't are shaded by the summit ridge. (note: this is an old topo and shows the old Green Chair, the new Flyer goes higher. But the contours and gridlines haven't changed.)

The Bonnie basically runs east west.  Since Jay has ridges that run off each side of ridges those result in South and North facing aspects. Cayonlands is almost true south facing.  Timbukto is south eastern facing.  Glades like Kitz, Everglade, Andres face North west with other ridges blocking the late afternoon sun from the west so they get little sun.  Those were the best skiing Satruday and Sunday with Kitz being the worst of the 3 I mentioned becuase it is lower elevation.

I have skied Jay enough that understanding those aspects makes a big difference especially in the spring as to how you ski the mountain.

I love the terrain. Its just become way to commercialized for me.  I stopped teaching at ASC and went to the opposite end of the scale with WF for this reason back in 2000.

You should switch this trip to Stowe.  Best skiing I've ever done.  It is built up, but it prices out most of the gapers so the GS ratio is almost all S.  My dad and I stayed on the groomers, but there were plenty of bumps and trees as well.  I was surprised by how high the skier quality was there vs Okemo which I skied the next day.

snoloco wrote

You should switch this trip to Stowe.  Best skiing I've ever done.  It is built up, but it prices out most of the gapers so the GS ratio is almost all S.  My dad and I stayed on the groomers, but there were plenty of bumps and trees as well.  I was surprised by how high the skier quality was there vs Okemo which I skied the next day.

I thought the price attracted gapers like you not the other way around.

Coach Z wrote

 

What I really need to get a discussion going about is has Jay Peak lost its way.  

I understand what you're talking about, Coach. We went thru this at Greek, but as SBR said, I too think it's growing pains. I think Jay Peak will come thru this and be as good if not better than she ever has been.

My son totally loved Stowe the one say he skied there

The downside is the price

There also is a big end of season race there if he wants to extend his racing season though that may take the fun out of the trip

I might be able to get behind the Jay bashing if it weren't for this simple fact:

Whiteface is Jay Peak without the 300" of snow, awesome tree skiing, tremendous side country, fun waterpark, and on hill dining & lodging options.

One of those mountains is your favorite and now you hate the other one? They're both cold, icy and attract a pretty good share of "gapers". In spring, because they are both cold and icy, the conditions are generally a crapshoot. And every time I've been to Whiteface lately, there's a very high "Gaper" population.

I figure it's due to a few reasons:
1. People coming to LP for a winter sports vacation where skiing is one of the many activities
2. The layout of the mountain, which puts all the gapers on full display all over the mountain, especially on Lower Valley, Upper Valley, Excelsior/Victoria/Northway, Wilmington trail, etc. (at Gore, if you avoid the Sunway/Wild Air/Sleighride area, you're in pretty good shape).
3. Blue trails that are difficult by the standards of other mountains. This is true at Jay as well, and Whiteface uses it as part of its marketing.
4. Whiteface is more famous than Gore and listed on many more Ski Magazine ratings, etc.

I'm not saying any of this to bash Whiteface. I'm just saying that a lot of the problems you have with Jay are also problems at Whiteface. Your post has a lot of pot-calling-kettle-black to it. And I wonder if there's a little extra added Jay bashing because Jay competes directly with Whiteface for many of the same skiers.

Coach:  Sign up for the Stowe bypass program.  If you have an RFID card already, link it to a credit card and when you pass through the gates at the first lift you ride, it charges 89 dollars to that card.  IMO, that is a reasonable price for what they offer, plus you never need to wait in a ticket line again.

Glade:  You should go there and find out what the GS ratio is rather than flaming me on this site.  Those who have always say that it is slanted more toward the S than the G.  How about you just don't post anything if all you are ever going to do you is flame everyone.  I'm pretty sure you are going to say something to insult me for posting this.  Oh wait, your posts are limited, so this is your final one today.  You won't be able to tell me to f**k myself till tomorrow.

Matt

after WF Jay has been one of my favorite place to ski because of all that snow and the trees.  We elected to go there like 5 spring trips in a row.  It has nothing to do with WF competing with Jay.

I just feel like the nature of the place has changed by the investments in all the other stuff.  I hope someone in NVT is reading all this and decides it's time to spend on the ski product and not all the other crap.

Jay now is way more crowded compared to WF and unless you just are skiing the Facelift area or excelsior the level of skiing I see at WF is darn high.

Sno
I have never paid $89 for a lift ticket and don't plan on starting to.  I think the most I've ever paid was like $82 at Park City which was a total rip off.

Coach Z wrote

after WF Jay has been one of my favorite place to ski because of all that snow and the trees.  We elected to go there like 5 spring trips in a row.  It has nothing to do with WF competing with Jay.

My point was that the same criticisms you have of Jay can also be made for Whiteface.

Jay now is way more crowded compared to WF and unless you just are skiing the Facelift area or excelsior the level of skiing I see at WF is darn high.

No way. Have you skied the Wilmington Trail? Have you taken the Mountain Run double and looked at the lunatics who ski Mountain Run way too fast for their ability?

Yeah, on a given day, Jay might be more crowded than WF, but the layout of the mountain does a better job of separating the "gapers" from me, especially because the trees are usually an option. The trees are not in play as much at WF, and the trail layout means that I ski in the vicinity of poor skiing almost everywhere I go.

I don't know how you find such great deals everywhere.  Most my dad has spent on a lift ticket was $92 at Stratton, but we've came close on other occasions.

At Stowe, we had Vermont Travel Club cards which dropped the ticket price to $67 per person per day.  If we didn't have them, we'd sign up for the bypass program.

^ Become a ski instructor

Didn't realize that being an instructor means ticket discounts at some mountains

Coach Z wrote

My bitch us that they spent all this dough on hotels and water parks and none on what really matters the skiing.

Agreed. The major on hill upgrade was a lift to service the park and beginner skiers and to make it so folks didn't need to ride the T to transfer to Tramside (I never minded). West expansion is off the table as far as I know and the on hill "improvements" still on the table include a trail that will demolish a nice off map woods area. The thing is... for tree skiers... I don't know how they could invest more money on the hill... there really isn't much to do. If anything, I kinda value their restraint in making "improvements" on the mountain.

I'm actually kinda disappointed the High Speed Six didn't get installed because it would have resulted in more wind holds... that would have made me quite happy. Some of my best days at Jay include days when the Bonnie, Freezer, and Tram are all off line.

We were able to find some trees to ski but I felt really bad for these families trying to ski that un groomed boiler plate.

I never feel bad for families that ski Jay and have bad experiences. They are lured in by the resort amenities but they didn't do their research. I would never recommend Jay to families and intermediate skiers unless they had interest in the water park and skiing was a secondary reason for the vacation. But that is just it... don't feel bad for them because those skiers just went to the water park instead and they had a blast so it was all good. Those skiers having a crap time skiing subsidize the rest of us, fine by me. And if a few have a bad experience and don't come back... well, it is getting a bit crowded up there any ways...