The latest ORDA Screwup

JTG4eva! wrote

For a challenging mountain like WF, to have only ever had a couple trails with bumps....that only reinforces my point.  The lack of bumps at WF isn’t anything new.

If WF grooms everything, how challenging is it really?

They groom it because it would be unskiable if they didn't.  After a thaw freeze it could take weeks for it to soften up enough to get an edge.  Ever go on a closed trail and after about three turns you realized why it was closed?  I hate when that happens

Interesting and I agree. Without being groomed could lose trail for weeks with the rain freeze thaw repeat cycles.    So.  And this is not political.  With the weather changes last decade vs 70s or 80s could this also drive less bump runs?   Thinking yes.   I too remember bump runs thirty plus years ago.  Not saying I liked them but they existed all over nys.  

tjf1967 wrote

They groom it because it would be unskiable if they didn't.  After a thaw freeze it could take weeks for it to soften up enough to get an edge.  Ever go on a closed trail and after about three turns you realized why it was closed?  I hate when that happens

Yeah, that makes sense. Steep trails that are a sheet of ice can be downright deathly dangerous.

I skied more bumps in a couple days at Sugarloaf than I had all season @ WF

They had rain but also more snow.  Some of the bumps were marginally skiable to someone like me that can ski anything but they are ok with that.  The difference is Sugarloaf defines itself as an experts ski area.  Our mis guided marketing and mis management lack of strategic vision of what WF is and should be is not understanding this.  WF is not, cannot and will not be ever a BLUE ski area regardless of how many lodges with restaurants vs bars they build.

When I worked at Killington they always left Double Dipper bumped because if icy a groomer is way more dangerous to than a bump run.

Grooming is like over tilling a farmer’s field.  It does a good job jumpstartimg or in emergency recovery, but doing it too often can create a chronic problem worse than primitive agriculture.

Tell us how your really feel..lol.
Sugarloaf grooms just so much as whiteface. The leave a cat track or two open on far Lookers left of the mountain but for the most part everything is groomed  
I've skied there many times. Free place to stay when I'm there.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled bitch fest.

tjf1967 wrote

Sugarloaf grooms just so much as whiteface. The leave a cat track or two open on far Lookers left of the mountain but for the most part everything is groomed  

With ~140 trails, yeah--OK, I guess technically "most everything" gets groomed. But there are always 5 long trails you can count on to NEVER be groomed--Ripsaw, Double Bitter, Bubblecuffer, Winters Way. Then it's a REALLY good likelihood that at least one side of Spillway, Haulback, Misery Whip, Sheer Boom, and Skidder are bumped. That's respectable commitment--on multiple sides of the hill.

The point is neither Whiteface nor Gore (outside of the lift lines) are committed to that. But I also believe much of that comes down to layout. With Gore's traverse entrances to each of the pods, in many cases the skier doesn't know there are bumps or how big the bumps are until they've already committed to that particular trail. There's not a lot of bail out options or "I'll just skate past this trail and check the next one". So I've always believed that has to be part of mgmt's thinking as well. Not saying I agree with it....just that it might factor in. Confident, experienced skiers that know the mountain well would have no problems regardless---caveat emptor on trail conditions with a couple of signs. But yourself in the boots of the day ticket holder or 6-8 days/year passholder.

Ramble continues: much of the higher elevation/steeper stuff isn't necessarily wide enough either to do a half groomed, half bumped. Would love to see them do that on Hawkeye, but I think it starts to get tight on width--especially if you start funneling a proportionately higher number of people onto the groomed side.

Ramble part 3: They DO need a couple of dedicated bump runs. Their attempt at a bump run on lower showcase was laughable this year. Have always thought Twin Fawns might be an option. Honestly how many people really ski that anyway? And it's close enough to base that you could actually get some spectators if you wanted to do an event. Fence off the bottom good to reduce the merge hazard, blow some snow on it occasionally, probably good to try for a year. Give those NYSEF freestyle kids a chance to actually work it.

Loving the Twins Fawns idea!    Lower elevation also would keel them softer!

Hoser wrote

Loving the Twins Fawns idea!

+1

I don't think they would ever let Twin Fawns bump up. It's off the Sunway Chair that a lot of beginners take and that area is sort of a beginners area.
The Arena seems wide enough that they could let part of that bump up. Blue Mountain lets half of their Main Street trail bump up (they actually seed it). The Arena would be great for watching from the patio in front of the lodge.

Ski Sundown......now THAT’S a hill that has/had some dedication to bumps!  Where’s Greg?  Greg, is that still the case?

trackbiker wrote

I don't think they would ever let Twin Fawns bump up. It's off the Sunway Chair that a lot of beginners take and that area is sort of a beginners area.
The Arena seems wide enough that they could let part of that bump up. Blue Mountain lets half of their Main Street trail bump up (they actually seed it). The Arena would be great for watching from the patio in front of the lodge.

Around the 2010-2012 seasons (as best as I can remember), the skiers right of Arena was left to bump up.

   For as much as everyone hates on Tremblant , the three trips I took up there , no matter the weather , they had plenty of mogul and  un groomed options     Canada  embraces the mogul skier

x10003q wrote

trackbiker wrote

I don't think they would ever let Twin Fawns bump up. It's off the Sunway Chair that a lot of beginners take and that area is sort of a beginners area.
The Arena seems wide enough that they could let part of that bump up. Blue Mountain lets half of their Main Street trail bump up (they actually seed it). The Arena would be great for watching from the patio in front of the lodge.

Around the 2010-2012 seasons (as best as I can remember), the skiers right of Arena was left to bump up.

3/19/2011

Hoser wrote

With the weather changes last decade vs 70s or 80s could this also drive less bump runs?   Thinking yes.   I too remember bump runs thirty plus years ago.  Not saying I liked them but they existed all over nys.

Could be.  But I think it's more that grooming technology is so much better - winch cats, speed at which they cover terrain, tillers/finishers, etc.  Also, fewer double fall line runs (facilitating grooming).

As grooming improved, ski areas opted to use it because it allows a trail to be that much more accessible.  With the increase in uphill capacity, there is also a need for downhill capacity.  Further, as the skiing population is aging, there is less willingness to ski more than 1 bump run a day.

There's no bumps anymore because man-made snow + 20 freeze/thaw cycles every year + grooming make the snow too dense for decent skiable moguls. If we were still skiing mostly natural snow like we were 40 years ago, there would be plenty of moguls.  

Mogul skiing isn't even a thing anymore. Now it's all about trees and backcountry.  

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

Mogul skiing isn't even a thing anymore.

mm

Whew, I’m glad that’s the case....and it’s not just my achy knees and diminished mogul bashing abilities that are keeping me out of the bumps!

We need to raise moguls from the ashes.  When I win powerball I will buy ORDA and fix all of this SHIT that all began with the internet

Am I missing something?I have been exclusive to Gore for the most part this year and have been skiing nothing but bumps...My back is killing me.  Maybe trail of the year is that bump line down skiers left under the straightbrook chair.  Sunday both double barrels were kick ass bumps.  All the trees are bumps.  I haven't been up to WF more than once but Mackenzie is normally well bumped.  Wilderness.  Hopefully Friday.  Mad River(not ORDA) is all bumps too...my only other than Gore day