The latest ORDA Screwup

I think that I miss posted this as a response to an individual post and it may not have been seen by most....OR just no one cares or agrees with what I have to say and I can deal with that too.  Either way I'm reposting it and will see where it goes.  Again, I feel as though this thread has lost it's way......I didn't think it was as much about solutions as it was just about pointing out problems.  Sometimes we need to establish a baseline of the issue before we can set up a plan to rectify the problem.

My original post:

There is a lot of talk about money here and that is absolutely valid but it goes deeper than that.  It goes to just good management and common sense.  Other than my brief part time weekend gig at Gore my work experience is almost 40 years in private industry.  Let me tell you, none of the companies that I worked for would stand for the nonsense that goes on at Gore.  People making these decisions would have been out of a job.

Here are just a few of the decisions that have been made at Gore that would have cost little to nothing but were critical to the skier experience and mountain operations:

Failure to cut back Uncas.
Piss poor grooming (lack of grooming on trails frequented by beginners, skim coat grooming that accomplishes nothing more that a good early morning photo op., etc)
Lift operations - Knowing that the gondola was experiencing day-in, day-out breakdowns and not having contingency plans in place.
Lift operations - Not running the ADK Express and Sunway Chair forcing skiers of all abilities to the top of Bear and then leaving them the choice of boiler plate Foxlair, poor snow making and grooming at the top of Ruby (early this season) or uncut Uncas.
Purchasing new snowmaking equipment and then screwing up the installation of new pumps.  Not being aware of the pressure requirements of the system and then blowing out old, outdated, corroded pipes on the mountain.
Having prime snowmaking opportunities and running just a handful of guns.  If we are not a few days prior to a "Holiday" week or weekend it seems that management doesn't give two craps about conditions for regulars and passholders.

I'm sure that people here could contribute many more things to this list.  As I said, for the most part these are not money issues, there are just plain poor decisions.  Poor decisions and it seems as though the powers that be just don't care.

I think the one that just blows my mind this year is the Uncas deal.  What the hell???  I've heard it said that people were pulled of trail maintenance to help out with the new bar because it was behind schedule (this is just hearsay for me).  Are you kidding me????  This is a SKI mountain!  If you can't provide a good product....SKIING, who the hell cares about the damn bar?  Again, in the world that I come from, if I had been in charge of trail maintenance and Uncas was in that condition at the beginning of the season I would have been out of work.  The warped priorities of this operation are sickening.

Now for those that say stop bitching and go elsewhere.....well there are a few reasons I am bitching and a few that I don't go elsewhere.  I am a NYS taxpayer....seeing my money wasted makes me sick.  I am a season passholder....seeing that money poorly spent and the little regard that they have for us on a day in day out basis is just wrong.  I live just 30 minutes from the mountain so going somewhere else is a big deal.  As has been pointed out, skiing is an expensive commitment.  In my case it means making sacrifices and making sure that I buy my pass early to get the best price.  I couldn't do this otherwise, I have been priced out by most of the VT and western mountains.  I don't expect the same experience for the price I pay but I do expect to see my dollars well spent.

It is sad to see such incompetence going on.  Gore is a gem, it is a special, unique mountain that can be a great experience on a good day.  Poor management and decisions make those days a rarity.  I'll still go there (I'm on my way today) but it's too bad that I spend so much time wondering.....What if?

Back to now.....Identify the problems, work on the things within control and then justify change by citing the little successes.

Snowhunter wrote

People making these decisions would have been out of a job.

Government jobs just don’t work that way.  I’ve worked for the Federal government.  The private industry job I’ve been at for nearly 20 years requires me to work regularly with State government employees.  There are good people out there and there are really not good people out there, and they all seem to share the same job security.

I’m with ya Snowhunter. It was a good post that then got sidetracked by MCs rant on economics which with him means politics.  Glad you circled back on it.

The leadership is failing on all three levels. Poor strategic vision as to what each of the ski areas should be and how to market them effectively.  The current growth plan is build nice lodges and people will come .  To use the football reference before the Super Bowl this is roster construction and LT planning

Then poor planning on all the things you mentioned like planning ahead to brush hog a trail and deferring maintenance
And where and when to blow snow.  This would be game planning and play calling.

Finally the total absence of supervision on the blocking and tackling.  You need to execute on the little things well like plowing the parking lot when it snows, lifties trying to brush snow off chairs, and blowing gun pow when it’s cold instead of glop.

Theres nothing like that around Killington.


I agree Killy is a fantasticly run mountain, but it has a plethora of restaurants, bars and lodging running the gambit from high end to cheap motels as well as rentals.  Most of the places have hot tubs too.  And it's often cheaper then North Creek   That matters as much if not more then the mountain itself to a lot of the 6 day a year skiers that go there.

I ski more than six days a year.....and for overnight lodging a hot tub hits high on my list, especially with the fam along.  Don’t get me wrong, I’ll yurt it as well, but a hot tub ain’t just for newbie posers!

Well said Snowhunter.

It seems that what ORDA doesn't understand - and frankly, any ski area I've worked at - is basic project management.

You have 3 things:  time, cost and scope.  They are known as the "triple constraint."  You can have 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

In the case of ski areas, you have a pretty damn good idea when your completed day is (opening day, 24 December, etc.).  So, time is fixed.  That means that cost and scope need to be flexible.

Unfortunately, this usually doesn't happen.  Scope (requirements) are not cut back to make the date and no one wants to go over budget.

Further, I don't think ski areas look at their passholders, tour organizers and local businesses as stakeholders.  IMO, they should be transparent so that when something has to give, e.g. scope, it's not viewed as a "screwup."  Especially when it comes to new construction, people understand that things happen - weather, getting lift parts from Europe, shortage of skilled labor, etc.

By being up front with communications you control the message.  Imagine on an email list a resort says, "Thanks for purchasing a pass this season.  As for the new lift, the schedule calls for the haul rope to be spliced, hangars installed, testing and inspection (stakeholders understanding the scope).  We are still aiming to have it ready for opening day (stakeholders understanding the time constraint), but be advised that the RFID system may not be ready until Christmas. (stakeholders understanding the scope constraint)"

D.B. Cooper wrote

It seems that what ORDA doesn't understand - and frankly, any ski area I've worked at - is basic project management.

You have 3 things:  time, cost and scope.  They are known as the "triple constraint."  You can have 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

In the case of ski areas, you have a pretty damn good idea when your completed day is (opening day, 24 December, etc.).  So, time is fixed.  That means that cost and scope need to be flexible.

Unfortunately, this usually doesn't happen.  Scope (requirements) are not cut back to make the date and no one wants to go over budget.

Further, I don't think ski areas look at their passholders, tour organizers and local businesses as stakeholders.  I

I also wonder how much input they get from the customer base for the planned projects. I'm not advocating that all work is required to go through public review/comment, but there's a "voice of the customer" element that I feel has been ignored. There's a distinct difference between providing an upgrade/service that the organization thinks the customer will like/want/need (a product-centric approach) and an upgrade/service that the customer has actually identified they'd like/want/need (customer-centric approach).

Which customers do you ask?  The customers you currently have, or the customers you don’t have and think you want.

(JT carefully places soapbox, adjusts mic)

Cue Z......

SIAWOL wrote

D.B. Cooper wrote

It seems that what ORDA doesn't understand - and frankly, any ski area I've worked at - is basic project management.

You have 3 things:  time, cost and scope.  They are known as the "triple constraint."  You can have 2 of the 3 but not all 3.

In the case of ski areas, you have a pretty damn good idea when your completed day is (opening day, 24 December, etc.).  So, time is fixed.  That means that cost and scope need to be flexible.

Unfortunately, this usually doesn't happen.  Scope (requirements) are not cut back to make the date and no one wants to go over budget.

Further, I don't think ski areas look at their passholders, tour organizers and local businesses as stakeholders.  I

I also wonder how much input they get from the customer base for the planned projects. I'm not advocating that all work is required to go through public review/comment, but there's a "voice of the customer" element that I feel has been ignored. There's a distinct difference between providing an upgrade/service that the organization thinks the customer will like/want/need (a product-centric approach) and an upgrade/service that the customer has actually identified they'd like/want/need (customer-centric approach).

Stratton regularly polls season pass holders for opinions. They also where good about keeping the public informed during the install of the new Snow Bowl HSQ this past few months.

JTG4eva! wrote

Which customers do you ask?  The customers you currently have, or the customers you don’t have and think you want.

(JT carefully places soapbox, adjusts mic)

Cue Z......

Blue Line=Wall

Orda is a galaxy away from using VOC as real businesses do on an everyday basis.  VOC is something I’ve been throughly trained to deploy.  

The Gov tells Orda what to so VOC is not something they would ever truely care about.  The Gov is the only customer that has a voice and this Gov does not ski.  That is why we get restaurants instead of impactful investments.

Under promise and over deliver!

Didnt ORDA put these suggestion boxes all around their lodges - who says they don’t care about the VOC

Well the end of the season is slowly rolling around so it's time to get my compliant in.

This may be my last year at Belleayre having been a Mid-Week season pass holder for nearly a decade.

Unfortunately they eliminated their $289 midweek pass (which has been around for ever, previously $275), now the only other option they have is a $349 non holiday... so basically I pay $60 extra for weekends I will never use and I lose my ability to ski on holidays midweek.

Couple that with the fact they have their new $7 dollar a bag, bag check along with paid parking on weekends. I'm wary these cancers will spread to Midweek.

If I'm going to get pushed into a product I don't want, on days I dont need, all while being nickel and dimed with other crap I might as well move on to Peak/Hunter where for $329 I can get a Midweek pass, no blackouts, with access to some other mountains and you know... better snowmaking and terrain.

Hopefully they change their mind, Gore still has a midweek option. Or hell maybe ORDA could come out with a Ski3 Midweek at $449... I would be all over that.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-03-01/epic-vs-ikon-battle-for-the-best-ski-pass

Based on this article and considering that Orda was in the Max pass last year it inconceivable that Orda wasn’t invited to the Meeting detailed in the story by Bloomburg.  So why is Orda not in the Ikon pass.  This is probably the biggest F up Orda has ever had.  You can not go this market alone.  Turning ikon down would show the lack of business knowledge and strategic visioN on an Epic scale - pun fully intended.

Belleayre charges for parking on the weekends?

That has to be a joke, right?

Why do you think so? Gore and Whiteface(?) have it.

I didn't like it either, when it came to Gore. I still arrive first chair early. I have to walk 100 yards instead of 50.  When I can I park at the Ski Bowl and walk 50 feet.

I doubt they will go to midweek.

Unfortunately it’s not a joke. Belleayre has a new general manager this year, Bruce Transue. Bruce is the former operations manager from Hunter. There have been many changes made at Belleayre this year that have longtime skiers such as myself upset. We have been writing letters and having meetings with Bruce in hopes that he changes course. Bruce told me himself that he was charged with saving money so there’s the ORDA attitude.

Some of the issues are the preferred parking. The parking lot just isn’t set up to have a paid area without annoying all of the customers who don’t pay. People also can buy a seasonal paid parking pass with their new locker in the Overlook Club - the problem is the new lockers are only a foot wide and don’t fit a pair of skis since they’re not tall enough! (They are hacking the shelves out of them so skis fit).

Another is the paid ($7) bag check - doesn’t bother me since I get there early and get a hook or cubby but it’s just nickel and diming people.

The worst of it is that all of the bumps are groomed. As we all know Belleayre’s trails are very similar, but the bump trails are what bring a lot of people to belleayre instead of other Catskill areas. As of right now there are only a few bumps on the side of yahoo and on lower wanatuska in front of the lodge. They mountain replied that they view themselves as a “beginner/intermediate mountain and bumps don’t fit in that box.” They also have been closing many trails that should be open. They new guy is very concerned with liability and apparently that’s part of the reason he doesn’t like bumps. This attitude is possibly because a snowmaker was killed at Hunter when he was ops manager there.

I’m thinking we’re going to have a short spring season with the amount of snow that’s on the trails, and the lack of bumps. Hopefully March delivers but the 4” we got yesterday isn’t too promising. We’ll see what comes of all of these changes but I sure would like to see the bumps come back at a minimum. I encourage all belleayre skiers who are unhappy with the change to give the mountain feedback through their website. I don’t know if it will help but the more letters that are received, the better!

Change is always hard, if it impacts something you used or liked.

That said, none of what you’ve listed is new to ORDA, and I’m not sure I consider paid premium parking and paid overnight bag storage to be screw ups.  Whiteface has had a premium lot for a long time now.  Not sure if they still do because I haven’t tried to use it, but they also used to have paid overnight bag storage, going back a loooong time. I’ve used them both at one point or another.  

Bumps?  One thing that has always struck me about Whiteface, given its positioning as an experts mountain, is the lack of quality bumps.  I’ll give you that one.  I mean, Mac gets ok, but mostly bumps anywhere else are haphazard and ill formed.  I’ve always longed for some great mogul fields and good zipper lines (a ‘la MRG or Sugarbush) but mostly they mow down the bumps, been that way forever.  

Hang in there, you’ll get used to it!