The old new Greek Peak?

On the biking thing, they had that atv race last year, plus maitance roads, what else do they need to do? ( more trails aside, and buying the bikes)

Your response went back and forth between trying to compliment them and letting them know you are not happy.  Did you learn that at some breakout session.  Your bad at it.  You main gripe is your season pass is going up from 299 dollars.  What you want does not matter cause you are not willing to pay for it.  They are there for families.  If you cant afford 399 dollars per pass I have news for you, you cant afford to ski.  Life is not fair and you are not special.

That is all.

Have a good day.

tjf1967 wrote

..keep owners thoughts to themselves...

Not defending tj or critcizing anyone else.

Just my 2 cents. At times I find myself in to the role of conduit between management and skiers/riders.  (It actually started back during "Gore's paid parking debacle" LOL).

What I've learned is that if you value direct owner/mgmt input on this site, in response to things that concern you, respect in the forum is key.

Perception is reality. Is Harvey the guy who built a website for haters or will he give us a fair shake?  It ain't right, but I'm considered by many to be responsible for what is posted here. If you want access > deliver respect.

Not trying to kill dissenting opinions. Owners need to hear that stuff. Just talk to the owners like you would if you were looking them in the eye at dinner at HLL.

Free enterprise. Much better, more correct phrase.

People will naturally have concerns about their hill. Forums are where they voice them and hope to discuss them.

Harvey - if you feel my comments have been disrespectful of out of line then I apologize and by all means please edit or delete them.

billyymc wrote

Harvey - if you feel my comments have been disrespectful of out of line then I apologize and by all means please edit or delete them.

I don't think your comments are disrespectful or out of line.  You've got a legitimate difference of opinion.  

This might not have been the best place for me to post that comment. I have hard a harder time with access to information at Gore because of disrespectful stuff from the usual sources.  Just trying to make the point... if you want people to talk to you you can't tell them they suck.

I think Marc and John are probably pretty durable.

I talk to my friends and they tell me I suck all the time.

A lagit concern going forard, traditions at the glen casino project in binghamton,

As we know greek wants the all seaseon crowd, if this casino is built, it will have a golf cource, a casino, direct access to a night life, a place that can easly strip greek of its summer crowd ( relitivly speaking, not total but impactfull)

It would be enough to be impactful, if it happened? Any thoughts on if this happned? (Monticello ny lost most regula buisness to one),

Worst case senerio would be they put in a private ski slope up the hill in the back ( probly woule never happened but u can't tell with mega resorts what they will do)

How do you all see this taking place and affecting greek as a destination resort?

( not a nock at greek, a real concern and threat)

I have no skin in this argument.  And I don't want to beat an already dead horse.

But consider the (non-early buy) season passes at some of the smaller hills downstate:

Thunder Ridge -- $319 adult, $219 junior
http://thunderridgeski.com/thunder-ridge-mountain-information/thunder-ridge-ny-trail-map.html

Catamount -- $419 adult, $319 junior
http://www.catamountski.com/mountain/trail-map.php

Mt. Peter -- $499 adult, $469 junior -- and check out the size of that hill!
http://www.mtpeter.com/mountain-info/trail-map

I know your beef is not just the cost, but the way the price increase was handled, communication issues, etc.  But even taking into account regional economic factors, the new season passes described in this thread seem pretty reasonable.

Petronio

I applaud Marc for taking the time to comment, that's awesome  personally I think greeks passes have been somewhat undervalued for a long time and it's a little silly to throw out the 33% increase against last years promo deal designed (imo) to keep passholdes from jumping ship at an unsettled time and raise a little much needed capital. If the shit would have never hit the fan one could assume last years pass would have come in around $350 so a bump to $399 puts it in line if you ask me. at some point you have to look at it as an investment in YOUR mountain, no?

I'm just glad to see the improvements happening and plans indicating these guys are in it for the long haul. I guess a $329 pass  and an ownership sitting on their laurels sucking the last pennies out of the mountain til it dies a slow death would make these grumps happy? me thinks not

kw as much as your posts make my temples hurt you bring up some good points - if anything i think a casino nearby helps rather than competes with gp outdoor adventure brand.

regarding the mountain biking, keys to success of a modern bike park are planning and design as much as execution - aint nobody coming to ride maintenance roads re-purposed eroded hiking and deer trails. sustainable  pump track, xc and lift served downhill ftw!!!

One ther thing, what back side expansion? The one draw on past ski maps? I think that's state land? ( assuming the trail slides over to symeria glen where the flts is)

The planned expansion on chair 4 seems reasonable to improve the trails their, virgil peak is 2150' so greek could get 1100' vert possably

If u ride chair 4 u notice the cut area up above where I'm talking about

(I know greek cut but never followed through)

http://skimap.org/data/297/916/1355083788.jpg 

Just curious

Even if its a mega casino with a champion golf cource? (A golf cource is somthing greek has to build to be a 4 seasons resort)


As far as the bike thing goes how does plattekill do it? Their about the same size as greek

(Someone has to be pestamistic, and bring up the points)

gorgonzola wrote

If the shit would have never hit the fan one could assume last years pass would have come in around $350 so a bump to $399 puts it in line if you ask me. at some point you have to look at it as an investment in YOUR mountain, no?

Gorg - I"ll concede that $399 is in the ballpark of the surrounding market. Maybe I'm just getting bored of GP, having skied it so many years.

But think about this - given your numbers of a $350 to $399 bump in a year being reasonable -- that's 14%. Take that 14% a year for five years and apply it to that $399 price point - and you're at $768 a year.

For those of you having trouble with that math: $399 * (1.14)^5 = $768.24.

Someone asked if I'd rather see them go slower on price increases and slow roll the improvements. And I guess my answer would be that if an ~$800 pass is where we're headed to support the improvements, then yes.

But - it ain't my zoo. They can run it how they want, and when it doesnt' work for me I'll go elsewhere, no hard feelings.

And to those who think this is beating a dead horse - nobody's forcing you to watch.

billyymc wrote

But think about this - given your numbers of a $350 to $399 bump in a year being reasonable -- that's 14%. Take that 14% a year for five years and apply it to that $399 price point - and you're at $768 a year.

For those of you having trouble with that math: $399 * (1.14)^5 = $768.24.

That's assuming they will raise prices around 15% a year.  That would be way above inflation.  But regardless of the overall inflation rate, their future pricing will be dictated more by supply and demand, and the prices their competitors are charging.  Skiers in central NY have ample other sources of supply (as your sentiments prove).  (Well, maybe not ample, but once you decide to travel more than 2-3 hours then you have a lot of choices.)  

Perhaps in five years their season pass will be approaching $800.  Certainly that level of pricing -- and higher -- is being charged right now by some mountains.  But there is no basis for assuming an annual 15% increase.

Petronio

Petronio wrote

That's assuming they will raise prices around 15% a year.  That would be way above inflation

Agree with you totally - but I also dont' think they can fund a large list of ambitious improvements and expansion by only keeping pace with inflation.

A few points I wanted to clarify:

1. I have no problems paying more for a season pass as long as the on-mountain investments continue. I also have a Cascades Club membership, so the pass cost comes out of that, and is therefore negligible.

2. The Krygers and their associates were in fact required to file chapter 11 as a condition of the FDIC infusing capital into the place.  Remember, I looked at possibly bidding on the assets, so I was privy to certain information.

billyymc wrote

Agree with you totally - but I also dont' think they can fund a large list of ambitious improvements and expansion by only keeping pace with inflation.

Point well taken.  I assume they will model out the revenue required to support any debt used to make capital improvements.  Doesn't sound like they are in this to make huge IRRs on their equity investment, although presumably being businessmen they are at least trying to break even.  

Even so, capital investments will make sense only if the revenue is there to service the debt and provide whatever the equity return is that they are seeking.  Revenue is going to be a combination of lift ticket sales, season passes and other resort revenue.  And no matter what the level of their capital investments, they ultimately aren't going to be able to charge beyond what the market will bear.  Theoretically the market will allow them to raise prices until they raise them so high that profits stop being maximized and instead start to shrink.  (Of course, that theory doesn't address the intangibles that you are concerned with.  And the beauty of our [somewhat] free-market economy allows you to take your hard-earned dollars and spend them on goods that deliver more value to you, e.g., resort variety, concentrated family time, etc.)

I've never been to GP, but just checked out their website.  Seems like they have lodging and are doing RE development.  Are these owned by the same folks?  If so, pass revenue is just one source of revenue among many.

Petronio

billyymc wrote

 but I also dont' think they can fund a large list of ambitious improvements and expansion by only keeping pace with inflation.

Well, not necessarily. For instance, if they got the place cheap because of the bankruptcy, then they likely have more wiggle room.

The local market is 300-400 $ not any more, the wiggle room is to b seen,

All the upgrades aside their 6 ski area with in 70 miles, to many improvment makes greek out of reach for binghamtons market, collage students and fqmliys

Weekdays they only run 3 lifts kinda making greek smaller then song

If I am too pay a incresed pass this half area crap has to stop, I hate skiing in crowds, I ski midweek and want to ski the trail opean only on weekends

Are u friggin kidding me?!?! Enough is enough.....previous owners have quite the history of BK and ski areas.....3 strikes and your out, no?

Rj1972 wrote

A few points I wanted to clarify:

1. I have no problems paying more for a season pass as long as the on-mountain investments continue. I also have a Cascades Club membership, so the pass cost comes out of that, and is therefore negligible.

2. The Krygers and their associates were in fact required to file chapter 11 as a condition of the FDIC infusing capital into the place.  Remember, I looked at possibly bidding on the assets, so I was privy to certain information.

Rj1972 wrote

A few points I wanted to clarify:

1. I have no problems paying more for a season pass as long as the on-mountain investments continue. I also have a Cascades Club membership, so the pass cost comes out of that, and is therefore negligible.

2. The Krygers and their associates were in fact required to file chapter 11 as a condition of the FDIC infusing capital into the place.  Remember, I looked at possibly bidding on the assets, so I was privy to certain information.

tjf1967 wrote

I talk to my friends and they tell me I suck all the time.

Buwahaaaaaa