Gore Improvements Summer 2015

Harvey wrote

Spongeworthy wrote

...fine with it just the way it is and look forward to this season's improvements, which we are exceedingly grateful to get.

+1

I want the Ski Bowl open.  It's not really "smart" from an OPs POV to go there first (or second or third of fourth or fifth). But it would be so cool for them to line 46er with HighE guns on and blow it the way Killington blows on Ovation.  Pound it in full view.

But that's not going to happen with public money. At least not yet. K is a private business and they can do what they want.

Sno, skiing is moving inexorably in your direction, surface lifts, chair lifts, bubble lifts, dynamite, warming huts, waffle huts, slopeside lodging, valet parking, sushi bars, first tracks passes, on an on.  Someday before you die they will have removed all of the exercise and soul from skiing. Is it so bad that it lives on in the ski bowl for a few years more?

Also curious as to why you focus on Gore. Why no wrath for Plattekill or Hickory or Snow Ridge or other places?

I don't think he has been to Platty, Hickory or Snow Ridge.

I would disagree with you - I think that the peak of the lift served skiing hit about 10 years ago (on a per skier basis, there are more skiers so it is still growing but not as fast). There has been a huge resurgence in back country skiing, Over the last few seasons I have seen many more people in the back country. I don't have any facts, all I know is what I observe.

Snow Ridge, Plattekill, and Hickory aren't major ski areas, Gore is and must be able to comete with other ski areas of similar size.

They wouldn't need to put taxpayer dollars toward Gore if they upgraded their snowmaking and lifts to what Vermont mountains have.  They don't need to homogenize everything in order to open a their lifts within a reasonable period of time.  It should not take 2-3 months to open all the lifts.  Thanksgiving Weekend to 12/26 should be plenty of time.

Let's see your plan, with price tags.  Wild ass guess is fine.

snoloco wrote

They wouldn't need to put taxpayer dollars toward Gore if they upgraded their snowmaking and lifts to what Vermont mountains have.

Please explain how State-owned and State-run Gore doesn't need taxpayer dollars.

Harvey wrote

Let's see your plan, with price tags.  Wild ass guess is fine.

I'll take a stab at that.  Let's start with what they spend now.  Gore spends about a million bucks a year on electricity, probably 2/3 of which goes towards snowmaking.  Then there's the snowmaking crew.  Wild Ass guess of $100K for wages & benes.

To have a shot at doing what Sno's talking about, Gore needs to double its water pumping & air compressor firepower.  Maybe that could be done for $1 million?  Mike Pratt always said Gore was "gun poor," so throw in another half mil for a couple hundred more tower guns.  Maybe you don't need quite so many guns because Gore's added quite a few over the past few years. But that's all that's needed, and those guns, pumps and compressors are a one-time investment.  Once you've got that increased capacity, you spend the same amount on electricity and labor as you do now, you just front-load it all into November and December. It's not the total amount of snow that's made that changes, just when it's made.  Now, if things go well and skier visits go up because more terrain gets opened earlier, then you can make a case for making more total snow.  Build the bases a little deeper, refresh the surfaces more often.

So 1.5M? That's cheaper than I thought.  

Could probably get that much for the BRQ, sell it as used, maybe put a rope tow over there or make it an earn your turns area.

Maybe sno is right.  If that made Gore as crowded as Stratton or K I wouldn't like it. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense though.

Same cost to do it for WF and Bell?

Harvey wrote

That's cheaper than I thought.  Could probably get that much for the BRQ sell it as used, maybe put a rope tow over there or make it an earn your turns area.

Maybe sno is right.  If that made Gore as crowded as Stratton or K I wouldn't like it. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense though.

How much would it cost to do the same for WF and Bell?

The BRQ must stay right where it is now.

I'd fix things as follows.  This is the priority list.

1.  Replace High Peaks Chair with brand new double.

2.  Double or triple snowmaking capacity.  Whatever is necessary to open all of the lifts by 12/26.

3.  Regrade Hedges/Lower Tahawus into a green.  The portion of Tahawus below Hedges would be renamed as part of Hedges and above Hedges would remain Tahawus with a Blue rating.  It's already not challenging at all, so I don't think much is needed.  Cut Abenaki glade and make it a full run down to the BRQ with a green rating.  This means that all ability levels can move between the base areas.  Give this run the name of Eagle's Nest to simplify trail names.

4.  More trails on Burnt Ridge.  Something near where Barkeater and Boreas glades are would be great, plus one near Cirque Glades.  Rate them both as a blue.

5.  Replace North Quad with High Speed Quad and relocate the fixed grip quad to replace the Sunway Chair.

Prices please. Include WF and Bell, or explain why they don't count.

While you are at it, include money to relocate me to Roxbury.

Sno = the jalapeno mac and cheese kid?

Coach Z wrote

Even if this does allow you to make it without skating it's an improvement.  I've always thought putting the cross over trail below the lift maze was dangerous.

It won't accomplish that.  But it will reduce people in tucks blasting through the crowd.

The trail wasn't actually put there per se.  It's an old work road that goes to the lift.

Harvey wrote

Prices please. Include WF and Bell, or explain why they don't count.

While you are at it, include money to relocate me to Roxbury.

High Peaks Chair:  2 million

Double snowmaking capacity:  5 million (your estimate)

Burnt Ridge/Ski Bowl/North Side connection improvements (including snowmaking):  1.5 million

North Side HSQ and Quad relocation:  5 million

More Burnt Ridge trails:  1.5 million

Grand Total:  15 million.


Whiteface and Belleayre aren't part of this because this thread is about Gore improvements only and relocating to Roxbury is going to be done on your own dime.

That is almost 10 times all or Orda's capex budget.

You are going to have to accept that Gore is not Stratton or Okemo and never is going to be.  If they spent this money I doubt it would have a good payback.  There is none of the on hill lodging you suburban types like limiting Gores ability to generate the profit that Southern or Central VT resorts can get.

I doubt any of its loyal customers value what you are suggesting either.

Coach Z wrote

That is almost 10 times all or Orda's capex budget.

How do you ever expect to win a debate against Matt if you can't get your facts straight on something as simple as this. From ORDA Budget ORDA has ~7M this year and is asking for $7.5M next year. Granted that peanut butter has to be spread over a lot of slices but it is the same order of magnitude of the number Sno came up with. So now for the more interesting question: How would they raise the money and how would they justify it, i.e. how long would it take to pay it back given the projected increases in ticket/rental and service sales. Oh, and you must include the extra expenses for manpower to run the snow making and groom the trails as well as the  extra fuel and electricity to pump the water, compress the air and run the groomers. Lets see the full business plan. Before I call you the consummate dreamer - I'd like to see the full plan.

snoloco wrote

Whiteface and Belleayre aren't part of this because this thread is about Gore improvements only

I was thinking politically it would be difficult to do 15m in upgrades/maintenance to Gore without addressing issues at Belleayre and Whiteface.

What would be the timeframe for this work?

My bad
I didn't look the budget up
So it's double Orda entire capex budget.  Gores share of the budget is probably around 1.5 to 2m

Still not happening

Coach Z wrote

My bad
I didn't look the budget up
So it's double Orda entire capex budget.  Gores share of the budget is probably around 1.5 to 2m

Still not happening

Don't know enough about it but let's see if the kid can come up with a business plan that supports it, would be a learning experience for him.

^ Nice PeeTex.

Ideally, I'd like other people on the forum to stand up to Coach Z's nonsense every once in a while so I don't have to keep doing all the work. I want to go watch football, not debate things that should not even be up for debate, but I do it because I feel like Coach Z's BS ideas might start gaining traction if people keep reading them with no responses.

In the real world Gore would have an advertising plan for the NY metro area. Now there is zero advertising in a huge market that is about 4 hours from Gore. ORDA's Lake Placid bias prevents ORDA from maximizing the huge NYS investment in Gore.

The mountain could easily handle another 50K visits with a few infrastructure additions like parking, add another place to eat somewhere else on the mountain and add a real base building in the Ski Bowl. 50K visits at a conservative $70/visit would generate another $3.5mil per year at Gore. If ORDA allowed that money to stay at Gore (probably not) you  would have enough money to increase and use the extra snowmaking. This in turn would allow more open terrain earlier in the ski season which would help stabilize the additional visits.

P-Tex's numbers come from the state's budget document.  Here what actually spent in each of the last several fiscal years on capital projects.  These numbers come from ORDA's audited financials (link to 2014-15 audited financials here):

Footnote 5, Property Plant and Equipment:
Additions, fiscal year ended 3/31/2015: $16.4 million
Additions, fiscal year ended 3/31/2014: $6.1 million
Additions, fiscal year ended 3/31/2013: $7.1 million
Additions, fiscal year ended 3/31/2012: $23.6 million

The amounts vary considerably.  The big bumps in '15 and '12 are for the AEII and the Convention Center.  The point is that ORDA has taken on plenty of projects over the years that are in the ballpark of the dollars Sno threw out ($15 mil).

Sno: some of your numbers are high, for example the $5 million for snowmaking upgrades.  I'm guessing your list could be done for closer to $10 mil than $15.

X:  I agree, Gore could handle another 50K skier visits pretty easily.  Gore did about $10 mil in revenue last year on approx 200K skier visits, so I'm thinking your $70/visit is high, more like $50/visit.  But that's still $2.5 mil additional revenue.

One other thing, if you look in the Annual Report (which by the way is a different document than the audited financial statements), Gore had a $1.3 million profit last year.  There's no data on how that $1.3 million was calculated (for example does it include depreciation on Property Plant & Equipment?), but I thought it was interesting that they put that number out there.  It's the first time I've seen a bottom line profit or loss figure for an individual venue.

I'd try to get the capex budget raised to 9 million and give Gore 5 million of it.  The improvements would be done in 3 years.  The snowmaking would need to come first and then the High Peaks Chair concurrent with the trail improvements.  The North Side HSQ and relocation to replace the Sunway Chair would come after that.

I'd like to do the High Peaks Chair first, but in order to follow my "if you can't cover it, don't cut it" rule, the snowmaking must be done first.