Gore Improvements Summer 2015

snoloco wrote

I'd like to do the High Peaks Chair first . . .

No disagreement there. Just ask the liftys who operate Lift #6 -- they're afraid of it and won't ride it. The local group that regularly meets and discusses this (among other things) can't find the money to get this accomplished without a substantial cash infusion from the State of New York. If you can give me a feasible way to get this done, I'll be your campaign manager 20 years from now when you're old enough to run for president.

snoloco wrote

I'd try to get the capex budget raised to 9 million and give Gore 5 million of it.  The improvements would be done in 3 years.  The snowmaking would need to come first and then the High Peaks Chair concurrent with the trail improvements.  The North Side HSQ and relocation to replace the Sunway Chair would come after that.

I'd like to do the High Peaks Chair first, but in order to follow my "if you can't cover it, don't cut it" rule, the snowmaking must be done first.

One more thought - there is no way you replace the High Peaks Double with a new double. Nobody makes double chairs. It would be a custom job. Mittersill wasted $2.7million for a new 4050 ft double in 2010. Saddleback is asking $350k for the entire 4800ft double they need to replace. It would be better to go with a used fixed grip triple or quad - whichever was cheaper.

snoloco wrote

I'd try to get the capex budget raised to 9 million and give Gore 5 million of it.  The improvements would be done in 3 years.  The snowmaking would need to come first and then the High Peaks Chair concurrent with the trail improvements.  The North Side HSQ and relocation to replace the Sunway Chair would come after that.

I'd like to do the High Peaks Chair first, but in order to follow my "if you can't cover it, don't cut it" rule, the snowmaking must be done first.

OK buddy that's part of it. Tell me what the projection is for additional revenue and where would it come from. ORDA won't want to take skiers from Bell or WF and preferably no NY resort, rather they should come from Vt. or places South or Canada. So tell us the marketing plan to get those skiers there so the Revenue comes, where are they going to stay when they get to Gore? You haven't even begun to put together a pitch to make this happen. So keep working on it and let's see some more details.

IMO ORDA is giving Gore priority. Whether it is next summer or not, the High Peaks Chair is next on the list.  I think there is probably at least a general plan to fund that now.

At Jeff's price (1.5m) I wouldn't be surprised to see the High Peaks and significant snowmaking improvements in the next three years.  Too slow for sno but aggressive for NY.

I still say it is all moving sno's way.  I also think the North Quad is farther down the list than he would like.

Harvey wrote

IMO ORDA is giving Gore priority. Whether it is next summer or not, the High Peaks Chair is next on the list.  I think there is probably at least a general plan to fund that now.

At Jeff's price (1.5m) I wouldn't be surprised to see the High Peaks and significant snowmaking improvements in the next three years.  Too slow for sno but aggressive for NY.

I still say it is all moving sno's way.  I also think the North Quad is farther down the list than he would like.

The North Quad, while slow, is fine for the terrain it serves. Maybe if they re-graded the loading area and added a carpet loader you could speed it up.

The North Quad is NOT fine for the terrain it serves.  It gets too many low level skiers and slows and stops a lot.  A load carpet will only help marginally.  A HSQ will do wonders for that section and take many people off the front side.  The same is true if you double the number of trails on Burnt Ridge.  The goal is to direct people away from the main base area and not center everything around it.  These upgrades would do just that.

snoloco wrote

The North Quad is NOT fine for the terrain it serves.  It gets too many low level skiers and slows and stops a lot.  A load carpet will only help marginally.  A HSQ will do wonders for that section and take many people off the front side.  The same is true if you double the number of trails on Burnt Ridge.  The goal is to direct people away from the main base area and not center everything around it.  These upgrades would do just that.

Of course it is fine.

You are dreaming if you think it stops a lot. You are just parroting what you think happens on blue and green terrain fixed grip chair lifts.  It does not serve first timers' terrain. I have skied the North Quad with both my kids for years, mostly on weekends. There is never a line for the lift which means there is zero pressure to load the chairs. They slow it down occasionally(if you want) to load little kids - it rarely stops. There is no need to waste money on a HSQ that is 3800 feet long. A HSQ will not draw people to the North Side. There is just not enough terrain on the North Side. By the way, a carpet loader might double the speed.

You also forgot the mileage limits at Gore. Doubling the number of trails on Burnt Ridge is impossible. Maybe they will make Barkeater into a trail. I am not sure why you are focused on directing people away from the base - the AE2 never has a line and the gondola only gets beyond 5 minutes for a short period mid morning and after lunch on weekends and holidays. If you want to move people away from the base you need to put in another place to eat/warmup somewhere else on the mountain (top of Gore, bottom of Straightbrook Quad, the bottom of the Topridge Triple).

There are plenty of high speed lifts under 3800 feet.  Here's just a few of them.

East Peak Express @ Windham:  3500 feet
Superstar Express @ Killington:  3500 feet
Snowshed Express @ Killington:  3500 feet
Needles Eye Express @ Killington:  3200 feet
Bear Peak Express @ Mountain Creek:  3200 feet.

How can the North Side not have enough terrain for a HSQ?  Burnt Ridge has just 2 trails and the North Side has 4.  If you think only the front side is worthy of an HSQ, think again.  The AE2 serves a lot of terrain, but the gondola serves all of the same terrain as well.

When I learned to ski, I was 4 and turned 5 shortly after.  I never had the lift slowed down for me ever unless I fell.  That seems to be the norm for anyone 7 or under now.  Why?  Parents that think they're entitled to everything and don't care about anyone else on the lift.  They don't even attempt to get on at full speed anymore.

Maybe the North quad never has a line now because it is the 2nd slowest lift on the mountain and people go out of their way to avoid it.  Put a HSQ there and you'll never see a line again on the whole mountain.  

As long as we're dreaming, How about having the north quad go to the summit of bear with a mid station at the saddle.  I'm not sure the current lift line would work, but WTF, I'm dreaming.

On the build it and they will come idea, I was speaking with a local businessman last year who said that Mike Pratt was making an effort to open more lifts mid week to generate more visits. I have certainly noticed the improvement and hope that it pays off for the mountain.

tom

snoloco wrote

...think they're entitled to everything  and don't care about anyone else...

Haha! Ok that's funny. ^^^

x10003q wrote

You also forgot the mileage limits at Gore. Doubling the number of trails on Burnt Ridge is impossible. Maybe they will make Barkeater into a trail.

A while ago, Harvey posted a map showing all of the trails that Gore had the approval to cut.  There was one near Cirque Glades and one near Barkeater and Boreas Glades.  There was also one on the other side of the Topridge lift.  Barkeater being the longest glade in the east, I'd like to see it stay that way.  Abenaki Glade is far less unique and shorter, so less mileage to count against the limit.  If you cut just that short section, you've got another full complete Burnt Ridge run.  I'd like to see that rated green so that all ability levels can move between the base areas.

Boreas should become a trail and be rated blue.  Now there would be 4 Burnt Ridge runs.  Cut something near Cirque Glades, but keeping the glades in tact would mean 5 possible runs.  That would get people to go over there.  I believe there are 4 miles left as part of the limit.  However, I'm pretty sure that Boreas and Cirque are already accounted for (Harvey, please confirm).

That extra run off Topridge would improve usage of that lift, but IMO, more trails on Burnt Ridge needs to be the priority.


As for more/better places to eat, here is what I'd plan on.

Expand parking and have better food options at the Ski Bowl.  Now you've already put some more traffic over there that's not on the gondola.

I'm not sure which is better, but top of Straightbrook or bottom of Topridge would be a good place for a new lodge.  Make it bigger than the Saddle Lodge with more seating.

Either renovate or demolish/replace the Saddle Lodge.  Increase food options and have more seating.

snoloco wrote

Barkeater being the longest glade in the east, I'd like to see it stay that way.  

That would be Cirque.

snoloco wrote

I believe there are 4 miles left as part of the limit.  However, I'm pretty sure that Boreas and Cirque are already accounted for (Harvey, please confirm).

"Glades" (i.e. Boreas and Cirque) don't count towards the limit, only "trails" count.  Convert a "glade" to a "trail," and it counts.  I used quotes because how you define "glade" and "trail" is up for grabs.  High Pines and Double Barrel are "trails" to me, but they're labeled on the map as "glades" and so don't count toward the limit.  Three cheers for glades!!

snoloco wrote

A while ago, Harvey posted a map showing all of the trails that Gore had the approval to cut.

I don't remember seeing that map and I don't even know what terms to use to search for it.

Harv, if it isn't too much trouble please post that map again or link to where it is. If you have the latest info from MP regarding how close Gore is to its constitutional limit, I'd appreciate that as well.

Thx

There was 3.6 miles left two years ago before the new  BRQ to North connector and Peace Pipe.  

The BRQ itself is over a mile long and it's a straight line. Two trails would probably kill most of what remains of the limit.

The way it was explained to me Abenaki is or will be the trail.

I think that both Cirque and Barkeater were originally potential trails but my sense is that they are leaning away from that now.

I hope this is true because that leave some very cool options for the development of the area between Topridge and Sunway.

Sno you may not be a tree skier now but if/when you get into it l bet you'll really be into Barkeater and Twister glades. You can start on Chatterbox or Tahawas but when you get a  little more confident there is nothing more fun than flying for a full mile though the trees.

I know exactly the map sno is talking about and I searched and searched and can't find it.  I was in Mike's office and saw it on the desk and snagged a photo of it.

I kind of summarized it above but will keep looking.

This map prolly

Yep that's it HH.

Pretty lame that I can't even search my own forum.

I have to say that fighting with Sno over how to develop Gore is more fun than fighting over some other stuff.

Been reading this Gore Improvement ideas note, it’s not fighting it’s just doing yaw das. You oughta do this they ought do that it’s kinda fun to dream and adjust. I still want to see some of what they actually did for improvements this summer.

If that trail on the map that looks like it is now Boreas is made into a trail and Abenaki is made into a trail and treated like a full complete run along with the portion of Pipeline and all of Eagle's Nest, that would make Burnt Ridge much better.  I thought Barkeater was the longest glade in the east, but if it's Cirque, then I stand corrected.

What annoys me is that they spent all this money to build the Burnt Ridge Quad and only cut two trails.  All they seem to ever be adding over there now is more and more glades which rarely open because it's lower elevation.  If they could find some way to get two more full, complete runs in on there, the usefulness of that section would increase dramatically, and you guys could still have as many glades as you could ever want.

If there were two full complete runs that could be added to any section of Gore, where would you add them?  Burnt Ridge and Topridge have the fewest trails off of a lift with 2 and 3 respectively.  I'd say add Abenaki and do some grading work to that as well as Pipeline and Eagle's Nest (which are already counted in the mileage limit), ski well as one full Burnt Ridge route.  Something either gets added between Echo and Sagamore or Sagamore and Pipeline bringing Burnt Ridge to 4 full runs.  Topridge gets the other trail and it now gets 4 runs.  

After that, the next step would be to call in the lawyers to find a loophole in the mileage limit that allows snowmaking-equipped trails to be added without being counted.