Gore Improvements Summer 2015

That map wasn't precise accurate now as it show Abaneki and Barkeater as one, then splitting.  Think of Abenaki as nearly fully represented and Barkeater is about half, or the other way around:

That same photo also showed an variation of this:



I know there are reasons to be against this expansion too, (similar to skimore's beef with BR) and at the time I think the MIB didn't want this expansion, but based on a variety of factors they may have change their mind.  I think adding this would be cool vs turning BR into a standard EC experience.  It's almost like adding another mountain.

snoloco wrote

What annoys me is that they spent all this money to build the Burnt Ridge Quad and only cut two trails.

You will also be annoyed if they cut those trails and they don't get snow making immediately.  Let's face it you will be annoyed about something no matter what.

I know in the minority here, but I am very pumped about snowmaking on 46er.  I love it and also think it was the right move for a variety of reasons.

^ Yeah, I want to see that happen, especially since some connecting routes in that area have been destroyed.

Open up the whole thing. Replace the double with a 3-stop HSQ (Top of Jamboree, quiet area on the old Gondy line to eliminate that tough corner on Sunway, old Gondy midstation). Make a separate pod over there. Turn the old Gondy midstation into a wine bar, a rentable hut, or a winter oasis like this:


Obviously, there's no money for any of this, but I can dream...

It would be extremely asinine to add anymore trakls anywhere while BR has just two overcrowded trails (one extremely overcrowded trail when Echo is used for racing).  

You complain about how there is no money for anything, and then say you're for building trails on an area that has none while there's already a perfectly good lift that serves just two trails.  Expansion between topridge and sunway is also a terrible idea because it would direct even more people toward the gondola, which is the only lift you could get to those trails from.

Burnt Ridge isn't a typical ec experience in a bad way.  They got echo certified as the race trail which means even more days with only Sagamore open.   It needs more trails NOW and you'd need to have your head examined if you thought they should build any more trails off the most crowded lift on the entire mountain before fixing BR's trail crowding issues.

To provide all the people to support all this the state needs to put in that planned Hydro dam at Raparius and flood everything up to North River and make North Creek a big Casino water park resort by the new lake with an 18 hole golf course and lots of 4 star hotels, run a 4 lane divided highway up rt 28 to service it all. North Creek could be the Las Vegas of the North East.

While I rarely agree with LOCO, I'd also like to see further trail development at BR.  The HS quad could easily absorb more traffic, and it would be nice to have more non-glade ski options on BR when the racers close Echo.  Furthermore, I don't think that having another trail or two over there would ruin the BR experience as more glades could be added over time as needed.  I just hope that there's a way around the mileage limit.

As for expansion in the Topridge area, won't the proposed new trails be subject to snow loss like Topridge given that they face in the same general direction?

If I were GM and could con the ORDA board who could then con legislature (they can be bought after all), I'd do a plan that was a little bit of Sno, a little bit of Matt and a little bit of X:

 - First money goes into a doubling of snowmaking capacity.  Bring Gore's firepower up to par with the perceived competition in Vermont.  Open terrain as quickly as anyone in the East, and keep the surfaces refreshed all season (through Presi week in Feb).

 - Advertise the $hit out of that snowmaking (and all the other wonderful things about Gore) in places like metro-NY/NJ.  Divert to North Creek some of the traffic that veers east off the Northway.  Build skier visits from the current 200K to 250K.  The additional $2.5 million from those additional skiers pays for the increased snowmaking and other upgrades.

 - Trail construction will emphasize enhancing the connectivity of the existing pods, particularly BR and the Bowl.  Currently the biggest obstacle is getting to BR or the Bowl from the rest of the mountain.  It's not possible without a significant traverse (Cedars or Pipeline).  I realize this is not a big deal to many of us, but it is a big deal to those additional 50K skiers that I'm bringing to the mountain.  Solution:  cut a new return trail from Echo to the BRQ.  The trail would start higher up on Echo than the current runout from Echo to Cedars.  I know this will be difficult due to the terrain, but it is possible by starting high enough on Echo and possibly excavating / grading to achieve enough pitch.  In addition, cut a connector from Twister to Echo high enough that skiers could continue down Echo to the new BRQ connector.  Yes, a portion of Twister Glades may be disrupted, and the bottoms of Sagamore and Cirque Glades may be slightly disrupted.  Price you pay.  And convert Abenaki to a trail (with snowmaking pipes).

 - High Peaks chair needs immediate replacement.  Upgrade North Quad to conveyor loading and run it at higher rope speed.  A new, detachable HSQ is just way too expensive for that location.  I was thinking replace the Sunway double with a shorter chair that just goes to the current midway ramp at the top of Jambo, but I really like Matt's idea of running it all the way to the old gondi mid-station.

 - I love the saddle lodge, but it's in tough shape and the restrooms are terrible.  Gut the sumbitch, but in some real restrooms and leave the rest of it as space for brown baggers.  Do something similar with the old gondi summit terminal: if the building shell is salvageable, install low-flush or zero-flush indoor toilets and convert the rest of the space for brown baggers.  No Centerplate-style food service at the saddle or summit.  New lodge with food service at the top of Bear Mountain, where the ski patrol shack is currently located.  360-degree views possible, or at least damn good views of the summit area and the High Peaks.  I think when the new gondi was built they ran water sewer and electric lines to the top to accomodate a possible future lodge at that location.

 - I realize my trail improvements above ^^ use up some of the remaining mileage allowance, but offset that by retiring Cedars and let it revert to the work road that it originally was (or just call it a "glade").  Build out 1 or 2 more trails as mapped at Top Ridge, incorporating the old gondi mid-station.  This could be a very cool enhancement.

That's all... back to work.

PeeTex wrote

 North Creek could be the Las Vegas of the North East.

Like with the titties, cocaine, and everything?

That sounds incredib.....er um I mean terrible.

Loco's delivery may not be done as well as it could be but the kid often makes a lot of sense.

It does seem silly to have that huge area without a better trail system to actually make the lift a worthy investment.

So the there is a milage cap, what trails in the future could be eliminated to open up room for better options? How about that long flat connector from the north side down to the Burnt ridge/North Creek junction? Could there be a better option from BR to that same junction? Do you really need to be able to go from the upper north side all the way down to there?

The place has so much potential. It should be easy to take away a lot of numbers from southern Vermont and get that money into North Creek. Maybe the town just needs a visionary leader. I have no idea really and being in Arizona it's not really a concern for me but I just see the potential.

I believe that a trail from Echo would be topographically impossible, and even if it were, it would be useless if the racers took Echo.  The connector to the ski bowl, plus two additional complete runs would improve connectivity and make BR a slightly more challenging alternative to the front side.

The additional topridge run would be great to increase usage of that lift.  I think it should be narrow, twisty and turny unlike the other trails, but still equipped with snowmaking.  Once you have that trail, the rest of that Valley can become a huge glade with barriers that bring you back to the Topridge lift.  The same thing done on with the terrain above Sunway.  Make it into a huge glade.  The only issue there is that the gondola is the only lift accessing it and most skiers who are interested in glades avoid the gondola.  I have nothing against glades, I just don't like seeing what should be a trail cut as a glade instead.  Once all the trails are cut to the max mileage limit, I say cut glades wherever they fit.  I have no problem with that and even support it.  It's just that full trails need to take priority.

snoloco wrote

I believe that a trail from Echo would be topographically impossible, and even if it were, it would be useless if the racers took Echo.  The connector to the ski bowl, plus two additional complete runs would improve connectivity and make BR a slightly more challenging alternative to the front side.

The additional topridge run would be great to increase usage of that lift.  I think it should be narrow, twisty and turny unlike the other trails, but still equipped with snowmaking.  Once you have that trail, the rest of that Valley can become a huge glade with barriers that bring you back to the Topridge lift.  The same thing done on with the terrain above Sunway.  Make it into a huge glade.  The only issue there is that the gondola is the only lift accessing it and most skiers who are interested in glades avoid the gondola.  I have nothing against glades, I just don't like seeing what should be a trail cut as a glade instead.  Once all the trails are cut to the max mileage limit, I say cut glades wherever they fit.  I have no problem with that and even support it.  It's just that full trails need to take priority.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement that full trails take priority but I would agree that each trail/lift system needs to have  an adequate number of trails for the lift to be a worth while investment. Enough trails that can be regularly opened through most seasons just makes sense imo. What that number is probably depends on a lot of specific variables. That being said, I'm also not into gentrified McSki experiences but with the right person doing the trail design I think that even cruiser runs can have character. Looking at the topo maps and google earth images Gore looks like it has some interesting topography or interesting enough that it doesn't ever have to become another Mt. Snow, Loon, Waterville V., or Okemo.

raisingarizona wrote

PeeTex wrote

 North Creek could be the Las Vegas of the North East.

Like with the titties, cocaine, and everything?

That sounds incredib.....er um I mean terrible.

PeeTex wrote

To provide all the people to support all this the state needs to put in that planned Hydro dam at Raparius and flood everything up to North River and make North Creek a big Casino water park resort by the new lake with an 18 hole golf course and lots of 4 star hotels,

NOOO!!!
That is so wrong on every level.
What they need to do is dam up the Raquette and Moose rivers with a series of dams so they can work as pumped storage,  Flood about a million acres west of Gore and Whiteface.  Pumping water between the reservoirs will prevent freezing, and create a huge water source all winter long. Westerly winds will create God's snow machine, and the High Peaks will be the Wasatch of the East.

PeeTex wrote

 run a 4 lane divided highway up rt 28 to service it all. North Creek could be the Las Vegas of the North East.

Actually, if they rerouted rt28 back through North Creek, you might be able to ski pretty close to town. North Creek might have become a pretty cool town if the NYS hadn't diverted all the traffic away from it.  It would have been better to put the Northway exit on the north end of Warrensburg as well.

MM

raisingarizona wrote

It does seem silly to have that huge area without a better trail system to actually make the lift a worthy investment.

So the there is a milage cap, what trails in the future could be eliminated to open up room for better options? How about that long flat connector from the north side down to the Burnt ridge/North Creek junction? Could there be a better option from BR to that same junction? Do you really need to be able to go from the upper north side all the way down to there?

Great idea! Can Gore actually abandon existing trails in order to get back mileage?  That could open up other opportunities for expansion at and creating connectors to BR.

Did somebody say titties and coke?

Maybe Upper Darby could be reclassified as a glade.  It is not equipped with snowmaking and is too narrow to groom, that means its conditions are completely up to nature, so it could be a glade.  That's the only one I think that can be reclassified.  I think Moxham is the only trail with no plumbing at all, but it does get groomed.  That trail should not be widened, but it should definitely get snowmaking.  I think that Peace Pipe will be short enough to just point one gun in on each end and push out the piles.  I'm not sure if the BR-North Quad connection has snowmaking, but it did have great cover the last time I skied it, so it probably does have snowmaking, or they point some guns in on each end and push it out.

CMR wrote

Great idea! Can Gore actually abandon existing trails in order to get back mileage?  

Nope.

We all need to take a step back and realize how stupid mileage limits are for Gore and WF. Think how silly it is to even discuss giving back trails to increase the mileage. 6 million acres in the Park and there are maybe 1200 acres of lift service skiing.

Then let's start a movement to repeal the mileage limits.  I can start a petition.

How about a petition to repeal the law of gravity. I'm sick and tired of being earthbound.
Who's with me?

x10003q wrote

We all need to take a step back and realize how stupid mileage limits are for Gore and WF. Think how silly it is to even discuss giving back trails to increase the mileage. 6 million acres in the Park and there are maybe 1200 acres of lift service skiing.

It is stupid but environmentalist don't like to make sense. Extreme environmentalism is just like extreme religiosity imo.

Hows about they just call everything a glade?