Greatest Threat to World Peace: A Gallup Survey

PeeTex wrote

this is not what I said, I said the weighting criteria would favor schools with lower cost admission policies.

Nope. You've moderated to that position, but you originally said this with no qualifiers:

. I say no - rather lets choose to spend federal research dollars on schools that have lower tuitions - change the policies at NSF, DOD and DOE for grants. You will quickly see a race to the bottom

That's what I was responding to. Not the "one of many factors" position that you now claim to hold.

I did not dismiss his plan out of hand, I considered it, I like what he is trying to do but I don’t like the way he is going about it, and for the record, you have no idea whether I gave his plan any thought what so ever you just don’t like the fact that I am not fully behind what he is proposing.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Let me put this in a way you can understand, I did not dismiss your plan out of hand, I considered it, I like what you are trying to do but I don’t like the way you are going about it. You just don’t like the fact that I am not fully behind what you are proposing.

I'm not going to respond to the "spoon fed" blast because I only got into this tangent to defend Bernie's plan against attacks of people who don't really get his message. I could come up with some ways of lowering college costs (and already mentioned a few), but that wasn't the point of the post. I don't really care what you want to believe, I just wanted to defend his plan against charges that it contains no cost control methods, when it does.

Throwing money at colleges has not made the problem better. There are a lot of colleges just raising fees because they can, they use it as a sign of exclusivity, ask faculty members at RPI – you think they like what has been happening there? Let’s change the mentality of the administrators, if they want the research dollars and they want to be like the big boys they shouldn't do it on the backs of the students.

And here, it seems like the entire conversation has been a waste of time. No shit throwing money at the problem doesn't help. Where did I say we should just write blank checks? In fact, I specifically said we shouldn't do that. And RPI's problem starts with their corrupt president (just read her Wikipedia page).

Also, I'm a little angrier than usual lately because I've been reading "A People's History of the United States" and it's just relentless in its descriptions of how government, the rich, and big business have colluded throughout history to screw over working people. The shit in this book, combined with modern day stories (like that dickhead hedge fund guy who hiked the price of that drug or Volkswagen manipulating it's computers to skirt emissions tests), makes me want to pull my hair out.

mattchuck2 wrote

Also, I'm a little angrier than usual lately because I've been reading "A People's History of the United States" and it's just relentless in its descriptions of how government, the rich, and big business have colluded throughout history to screw over working people. The shit in this book, combined with modern day stories (like that dickhead hedge fund guy who hiked the price of that drug or Volkswagen manipulating it's computers to skirt emissions tests), makes me want to pull my hair out.

I have not read that book, I don't read "History" books written by political activists, they tend to be revisionist history, I would rather read history written by historians. I can't speak to the accuracy of the book but even true historians have documented how the middle class and poor have always been under attack in this country.  

ml242 wrote

and my health care costs are down.

You are the only person I've heard say this. Mine have increased on a weekly basis, co-pays have gone up for less overall coverage.

I'm thinking of quitting my job and going on welfare. That's seems the way to go nowadays.

campgottagopee wrote

I'm thinking of quitting my job and going on welfare. That seems the way to go nowadays.

If you have dependents you could get a mix of food stamps and cash that would total mid 30k. Without kids, maybe high teens? Doesn't leave a lot of room to ski and you would have wait a few years for section 8, if you're lucky, which probably isn't as nice as the house you own.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/12/this-chart-blows-up-the-myth-of-the-welfare-queen/282452/


But with the $200 you could save on the Tog pass...

Zinn was a bona fide historian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn
 
"A People's History..." is researched and footnoted, has an extensive bibliography, so you might consider reading before dismissing.

ml242 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

I'm thinking of quitting my job and going on welfare. That seems the way to go nowadays.

If you have dependents you could get a mix of food stamps and cash that would total mid 30k. Without kids, maybe high teens? Doesn't leave a lot of room to ski and you would have wait a few years for section 8, if you're lucky, which probably isn't as nice as the house you own.

Can't forget to throw in all the cash side jobs either. No kids, so I'd be 18K/ year, I could get free pellets to heat my house, free health care, free food.....looking good

ml242 wrote

But with the $200 you could save on the Tog pass...

That was funny as hell

timbly wrote

Zinn was a bona fide historian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn
 
"A People's History..." is researched and footnoted, has an extensive bibliography, so you might consider reading before dismissing.

Right. Very strange to dismiss things (or accept things) before researching anything, but I guess that's where we are these days.

Zinn is a self described socialist so please explain how he would not be writing a extremly slanted view revisionist history?

The education system is filled with union card carrying liberals that are poisoning the minds of our youth.  It stated with the softer side of education history and social studies and has now bleed into the sciences where the scientific method has been thrown out the window to bow to liberal dogma.

Coach Z wrote

Zinn is a self described socialist so please explain how he would not be writing a extremly slanted view revisionist history?

The education system is filled with union card carrying liberals that are poisoning the minds of our youth.  It stated with the softer side of education history and social studies and has now bleed into the sciences where the scientific method has been thrown out the window to bow to liberal dogma.

Yeah, it's definitely the libs poisoning the education system. Not the Texans that edited their state textbook so that the War of Northern Aggression could be over something other than slavery, how evolution is just a theory but the jesus rode on the dinosaurs, etc.

Honestly I have no clue about what you're ranting about. If anything, the social sciences are becoming more science oriented, with actual research and data to back up papers, not just the observations of one person.

And whatever your feelings on Socialism, the People's History is absolutely worth a read. It is not just cited and footnoted, it is done to death... almost to the point where it's boring. But there's also just a lot of stuff that's happened here that is fascinating that goes completely untalked about.


Have you considered another degree when you retire? Could be interesting, and if you're right about everything maybe you can change the system FROM THE INSIDE!

ml242 wrote

Yeah, it's definitely the libs poisoning the education system. Not the Texans that edited their state textbook so that the War of Northern Aggression could be over something other than slavery, how evolution is just a theory but the jesus rode on the dinosaurs, etc.

Honestly I have no clue about what you're ranting about. If anything, the social sciences are becoming more science oriented, with actual research and data to back up papers, not just the observations of one person.

And whatever your feelings on Socialism, the People's History is absolutely worth a read. It is not just cited and footnoted, it is done to death... almost to the point where it's boring. But there's also just a lot of stuff that's happened here that is fascinating that goes completely untalked about.

QFT.

Amazing how people use the word "socialist" and expect people to immediately dismiss anything they affix that label to. Things that are socialist: prosperous countries like Germany, the United States Military, public roads... I could go on, but you get the point.

Coach Z wrote

Zinn is a self described socialist so please explain how he would not be writing a extremly slanted view revisionist history?

The education system is filled with union card carrying liberals that are poisoning the minds of our youth.  It stated with the softer side of education history and social studies and has now bleed into the sciences where the scientific method has been thrown out the window to bow to liberal dogma.

When you are right - you are right!

Both left and right practice revisionist history, I don't waist my time with either.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/07/lies-the-debunkers-told-me-how-bad-history-books-win-us-over/260251/

What astounds me is that seemingly intelligent people don't recognize media bias.  The abc, cbs, cnn , NBC are all very left leaning in all the reporting and MSNBC is left of Lenin.  Fox is right leaning but thier on air personalities admit to this compared to Racheal Maddow and Chris Matthews with thrill running up his leg that still claim to be journalists.  Same goes for the  Washington Post or NY Times.

Cbs put out that show about a blond sec of state whom just happens to look like a young version of Hillary just by chance right?  

This bias is out there but so many people don't bother to understand they are getting a colored version of the truth.  I could care less how many footnotes a socialist adds to his fictional account of history.  That is still going to colored by his far left worldview.

Coach Z wrote

 I could care less how many footnotes a socialist adds to his fictional account of history.  

It's not just socialists, it's crackpots from both sides and even scientists. I remember as a young undergraduate physics major at reading Immanuel Velokovsky's worlds in collision and getting sucked in. Hell half the work was footnoted and full of supporting references - it had to be right, he had to be a genius to put all that together. After spending a few weeks with it and thinking it threw I learned a valuable lesson, any crackpot can write any POS he wants and if it is sensational enough he will get someone to publish it. Some people have not learned that lesson yet.

http://skepdic.com/velikov.html

Coach is right the media is bigtime liberal biased.  Really the hole damn world is, except for some terrorists, hannity and that skinny blond chick. It ain't right

Totally agree it can be biased by any view point

But the difference is the liberals take it as gospel and don't recognize the bias.  i alway read the bio of the writer and look it up if needed.  What was amusing here in this thread is someone posted this nut job Zinn's bio where the first line says he is a self admitted anarchist and socialist.  Pretty hard to take anything the guy says or writes seriously after that.

mattchuck2 wrote

Amazing how people use the word "socialist" and expect people to immediately dismiss anything they affix that label to. Things that are socialist: prosperous countries like Germany, the United States Military, public roads... I could go on, but you get the point.

While you may argue that Germany is a socialist country (I wouldn't) saying the US military is "socialist" or public roads are "socialist" makes no sense.  Socialism is an economic system marked by common (not necessarily public) ownership of the means of production.  Germany has extremely high taxes, universal health care and a broad public safety net, all hallmarks of socialist countries, but those things - in and of themselves - don't make Germany "socialist".  Public projects, like roads, aren't "socialist" and either is the US Military - although its publicly funded.  

You really just seem to use  the term "socialism" to mean anything that is paid for with public funds which is the same sort of nonsense repeated by right-wingers.  (But they use the word pejoratively, which is odd.  Socialism is just another manner of economic organisation.) It's worked reasonably well for a very few small, demographically homogeneous countries - although their economies tend to be ponderous and reactive - but has generally been far less effective when used by larger countries which is why it's been largely abandoned in France.  China and the Soviet Union have famously abandoned any pretext of socialism and firmly embraced market ideology.

Take a breath.  And don't read Howard Zinn.  While he certainly is a "historian" (pursuant to what logic would Howard Zinn not be considered a historian?) he's not a very good one.  It's hard to be objective when you're angry.

Coach Z wrote

What was amusing here in this thread is someone posted this nut job Zinn's bio where the first line says he is a self admitted anarchist and socialist.  Pretty hard to take anything the guy says or writes seriously after that.

Why?  Ideas should rise or fall on their own merits not because of some label someone or other placed on them.  I happen to think Howard Zinn's conclusions about many things are simply wrong but not because he describes himself as a socialist.  You'd benefit by thinking a bit more critically.  And life is more interesting that way too.

This is quite a thread.

I have no idea what socialism is.

I thought that socialism was the pooling of public money to provide services, like  roads or social security. If it has more to do with ownership than funding, then who owns the roads in the US?

I also wonder why if Bernie is actually a socialist. I've heard him talk a lot about spending but not ownership at all.

Whether he is one or not, seems politically smart to say you are one, then nobody "accuses" you of being one. Sort of makes it a non-issue.

Hey X ... what is that picture?