Next Upgrades at NY Ski Areas

snoloco wrote

  Or we could get a proper connection to the ski bowl NOW.

snoloco wrote

I'm not pulling facts out of my ass.

Where is your citation for this statement of fact?

snoloco wrote

Gore gets more overnight visitors.

If you can't cite a source for a fact, then you pulled that fact out of your ass.  

I'm not saying he's making it up. I just want to know the source.

It's funny I remembered posting that pie chart in 2007 and I thought of it as solid proof that Gore was more of a day area. I didn't remember that ORDA was using it to emphasize Gore's move towards destination status.

As a regular on Gore weekends it FEELS like everyone there is Capital District, Hudson Valley and NJ. But that's not scientific, just a wild ass guess.

FWIW most of the definitions you find for destination resorts include the phrase "self contained."

Harvey wrote

FWIW most of the definitions you find for destination resorts include the phrase "self contained."

Didn't I say that??  

I want it now because I've already waited 5 years and got no snowmaking capacity upgrade and no connection from the main mountain that has snowmaking and isn't flat as a pancake.  Over the past 5 years, the state bureaucrats have teased us year after year about how great the ski bowl was, but in reality, the expansion was a complete and total bust.

First year what they said:  Hype up the expansion big time and hardball advertise it.  "REOPENING THE HISTORIC NORTH CREEK SKI BOWL". "INCREASING GORE'S VERTICAL ONCE AGAIN".  " AMAZING NEW TERRAIN".

What really happened:  It didn't open till almost February and was only open on weekends till mid March.  About 20 days out of over 120 that it was actually open, and 10-11 was a great snow year.

Year 2 what they said:  More snowmaking on Ski Bowl, should be open more.

What happened:  Worst ec ski season since 06-07 when MC couldn't open till late January.  Only opened 2 days the entire season when there was a freak snow storm.  All other ski areas got all their lifts running on their own, even if it was considerably late.

3rd year what they said:  More snowmaking capacity will allow it to open more.

What happened:  Amazing holiday season opens it on 12/28, only 2 days after the sno approved cutoff.  It was open weekends and then in mid January, a thaw closed it till almost President's Day.  Probably open about 20-30 days out of 120-125, if that.

4th year what they said:  We have tower guns there now, more and better snowmaking and it sure will open more.

What happened:  they didn't open it till 2/8, the week before president's day.  It closed at the end of March and was open maybe 20 days that season out of over 120.

This past year what they said:  snowmaking hookups up to the pipeline bridge.  It will open more.

What happened:  they opened it MLK weekend, so the most days it's probably ever been open.  They still need more snowmaking though.

The times they said they added plumbing, they didn't increase capacity and it still rotted most of the time.

The graphs are accessible by Gore mgmt. for sure.  I am also guessing they come from ticket sales.    When someone purchases a ticket, they ask zip code of home address.    

As for the graph itself, not sure if that would be skier visits or total tickets....thus season pass holder counts as one (or not all all).   Or as they scan our passes at the mountain, maybe they cross reference that and while they may scan you 10 times, they only count one for the day.  

On the 2007 graph, I added up 50% of the folks would stay over night---destination as opposed to day trip.   In my view, most folks would drive 1.5 to 2 hours without hotel.   If you are doing that, you are not stopping in town to eat before you hit the road.    

Strong Island representing!  Not bad at 10%.  Not bad at all.  BTW, I want an oompaloopah,  Now!

Harvey wrote

I'm not saying he's making it up. I just want to know the source.

I'm not implying that he is making it up either... heck, I think he may even be right.  That doesn't mean I can't bust his balls for talking out his ass.  I think someone said it earlier... he's starting to sound like Fox News.

Marcski wrote

Harvey wrote

FWIW most of the definitions you find for destination resorts include the phrase "self contained."

Didn't I say that??  

I definitely agree with the definition.  I can only think of 2 instances where it doesn't hold true.  Bachelor is a good example.  Big vertical, big acreage, a little bit of everything for the whole family, but no place to stay within 20 minutes.  Revelstoke is similar without the family oriented terrain.  There are a couple of outrageously priced lodges at the base, but the majority of services are 10 minutes away.  

Obviously, it also depends on your family situation.  I always recommend Red Mountain BC.  In my opinion it's the best "destination resort" in the West, but a family with kids probably wouldn't like it.

In the five years or so that I've gotten back to skiing with Gore being my home mountain, I am very pleased with the snowmaking improvements I've seen.  I think it's a lot better than my first year back.  If the ski bowl is your focus for Gore, I'm thinking you're missing the boat.

At 4 hours from the tri-state region I would think the town there ( I'm not sure of the name ) should be able to find a way to get people who are skiing at Gore to stay a night or two. I would think that would be in there interests but maybe I'm wrong. Having good connectivity of the ski area to town and regularly as Loco suggests would be a place I would want to start if I was an involved community member or a part of ski area management.

You have to admit, the kid makes a good argument. Even though Loco's posts read a bit arrogant I kind of like em. He's young and doesn't have it all figured out but he's no dummy either.

raisingarizona wrote

At 4 hours from the tri-state region I would think the town there ( I'm not sure of the name ) should be able to find a way to get people who are skiing at Gore to stay a night or two. I would think that would be in there interests but maybe I'm wrong. Having good connectivity of the ski area to town and regularly as Loco suggests would be a place I would want to start if I was an involved community member or a part of ski area management.

You have to admit, the kid makes a good argument. Even though Loco's posts read a bit arrogant I kind of like em. He's young and doesn't have it all figured out but he's no dummy either.

Don't think for a minute that North Creek hasn't tried to get people to come into town to spend their money on lodging and entertainment. Too often someone built it, but no one came. It's extremely frustrating that, other than lip service, Gore has done very little to help the town become what it could be.

Sno's arguments are well thought out and sound in general, but they don't account for the nearly insurmountable obstacles that preclude their application to Gore. I understand his passion about this topic, but he's pissing into a really strong wind.

raisingarizona wrote

You have to admit, the kid makes a good argument. Even though Loco's posts read a bit arrogant I kind of like em. He's young and doesn't have it all figured out but he's no dummy either.

Nothing against Snoloco... in fact, I would say he's got the most passion for the sport out of any of us.  I'm sure he'll make a great Ski Industry Professional some day.  He just needs to develop a more persuasive style of debate.

That's hard to agree with when the kid won't even hike for some fresh turns.  Hell, he doesn't even want to ride a fixed grip.  Maybe passion for amenities,  man made snow and high speed lifts.  I would agree then.

Spongeworthy wrote

Gore has done very little to help the town become what it could be.

Does the management team at Gore have a good relationship with the management team of North Creek?  or does it have something to do with state regulations when it comes to marketing?  To be honest, I used to be at Gore about 4 weekends a season, and I never considered staying in North Creek.  We always stayed at Garnet Hill.

Mission Ridge and the town Wenatchee pretty much move in lockstep.  Mission Ridge is not a destination resort, but the ski area brings about 10 million in annual Winter revenue to the town.  Wenatchee markets the ski area as the center piece of it's recreational offerings.  The ski area promotes the town offerings in the same way.  From what I understand, the Wenatchee chamber of commerce and the ski area marketing team have a very tight relationship.

It's a double edge sword.  There is a bit of contention now between non-business owning local skiers, and local business owners.  The ski area just purchased 800 acres of additional land.  There is talk of a multi-year development project with a goal of transforming Mission Ridge into more of a destination resort.   The business owners, and town officials love the idea, while many of the skiers hate it.  

I think Gore locals would find a lot of similarities in the culture at Mission Ridge with the exception of the relationship between the mountain and the town.  

Powderchaser wrote

That's hard to agree with when the kid won't even hike for some fresh turns.

Hiking is not for everyone.  Everybody's passion manifests itself in different ways.  Snoloco's is different from mine, but that doesn't make him any less passionate about skiing.

nepa wrote

To be honest, I used to be at Gore about 4 weekends a season, and I never considered staying in North Creek.  We always stayed at Garnet Hill.

Garnet Hill is in North River which is part of Johnsburg.  If you are staying at GHL to ski Gore that's a win for the local economy.  IMO.

One issue for the Gore/NC relationship is (also IMO) structural. To get to or from Killington or Stowe you have to drive past practically every business in town.  Most of the traffic to Gore come up 28 from the south and town is "out of the way." Just a little bit out of the way, but I think it matters.

Harvey wrote

One issue for the Gore/NC relationship is (also IMO) structural. To get to or from Killington or Stowe you have to drive past practically every business in town.  Most of the traffic to Gore come up 28 from the south and town is "out of the way." Just a little bit out of the way, but I think it matters.

Interesting.  So, it's a natural bypass... you could go through town, but it's easier to bypass.  That's a difficult obstacle to overcome.  IMO: When you're driving more than an hour, as you get closer to the mountain... you want to get there ASAP; therefore your not going to go the extra distance to check out what is offered in town.

Similar to Killington and Stowe, Mission Ridge is a the end of an access road, that you can only access by driving through town.  There are quicker ways to go "around" town (without going straight through town), but the signage for the ski area, leads the tourist directly through the business district.

Gore exists under an Authority which in the big picture lies somewhere between a not for profit and a government agency, they have to run fiscally responsibly but they have access to state credit and backing, but along with that is some state oversight. It's not an easy path because they still need to act within the political will of the state.

On the other hand, North Creek is a small town with very limited resources. When I have been through there and talked to shop owners while my wife is browsing there seems to be some there that truly want to make something out of it and others who are just there to scratch out a living.

Mix in some Adirondack Park, APA and DEC politics and you have a multi-headed monster that fights with it's self - like a Cerberus out of Greek mythology.

Now why is this relevant? Well from the perspective of attracting people to the area and improving the economy of NC, a more homogenized Gore that better appeals to the main stream might help, sno thinks so. However, given the multiheaded monster - even if Sno were a David, this Cerberus is much more powerful than a Goliath. The best he can do is to keep whacking at it. You may not share his vision for the place. I frankly don't have a dog in this fight but I can see his points. Not being a native of the North Country though and not having an understanding of the whole evolution of the Authorities, APA, DEC, and the state constitution and Master Plan it is hard for him to understand why Gore doesn't just do things like any other private corporation would.

So Sno - read up on the History of the Adirondack Park, the APA, NYS politics, The DECs Adirondack Park Master Plan, and North Country economics. It may help you to understand why things work (or don't work) like they do. Don't just Wikipedia it - go get some good books. Being from NJ your education would not have gone through all the bizarre twists and turns NYS has to offer. Even many in NYS don't really know and even those that do get frustrated. After some study, you may understand why you have waited 5 long years with false promises and missed opportunities. You may also learn what a daunting force the Cerberus really is.

First time in a heck of a long time I didn't check the forum for a week.  Been busy with work and getting my golf game up to snuff.

This is a doozie of a thread.  Just scanned thru all the posts in the last week.  I have to say that Loco has some good points.

The BR and Sno bowl expansions were done as everything in orda is done on the cheap.  The right way would have run a HSQ out of the base area to the top of BR.  A fixed grip could then have put somewhere in the middle between that and sno bowl.  This new way out of the base area would have eliminated a need to replace the Triple so it would have cost less long term.  It also would have saved that mile of trail in the limit of flats.  The trail thru the barkeater glade also saves another mile of connector trail from the North Quad.  I love those glades I hate flat spots even more.

Races on Echo do create a need to eventually put a trail where cirque is. Does anyone know why the races moved to Evho from Twister?

Personally I have never seen what is so great about Rumor.  Yes it's steep but really short.  If blasting out rocks gets it open quicker with less snow what is not to like.

I really love parking at Sno Bowl.  More snow making over there draws more people to start thier day there eliminating the need to add more of everything at Gores main base including parking

They needed the AE2.  The old one was literally being held together by a thread and it was a crapshoot if it even worked or not the last few years.  Plus, with the gondola as the primary way to lap the front side, it sucked because it was MC style where one had to remove skis every ride.  Have both lifts run almost all days and have the gondola be for accessing the mountain, and the AE2 for lapping traffic.

They should've put the Burnt Ridge HSQ right where it is now.  That section should have had trails where Cirque, Boreas and Abenaki are now.  There basically would be 5 trails on there and it would serve as sort of an extension of the front side.  The BRQ has a capacity slightly below design now.  It can do 2,000 pph, but if there were more trails on that section and more people using it, I'm sure they could add chairs and upgrade to 2,400 pph.

The Ski Bowl needs to be open from 12/26 till the last Sunday in March and should have snowmaking on all trails, but don't widen and straighten the trails because trails of varying widths and that have turns make skiing more fun.  The triple there now has a large chair interval, so I think it can do 1,200 pph now, but could be upgraded to 1,800 if lodge services were expanded there as well as parking.

The North Quad is similar to how Coach described Belleayre's fixed grip lifts and the Bonnie lift at Jay Peak.  Fixed grip lift that can't run at full speed because there are a bunch of families and kids on it.  It needs to be high speed as it would be a much better route from BR and the Ski Bowl (which should have more users on them) to the Saddle Lodge, which I'd expand to make there be less need to go to the bottom.  

I wouldn't even mind some base development at the main base.  If it were up to me, I'd put in one slopeside hotel and that would pretty much be it.  I'd just build it to look like an "Adirondack Style" lodge so it fit in better.  I would put it right where the Bear Cub lift is now so there'd be access to all 3 lifts and relocate all the learning stuff to the J Bar slope and the Ski Bowl.  I don't know what would be done about the Northwood's lodge though.  Maybe it is small enough to be moved to the J Bar slope.  I'd say price it so a standard hotel room goes for like 250-350 on a typical weekend, but maybe goes up to the low 400's on holiday weekends.  Of course, larger and fancier rooms would cost more.  With the Ski Bowl base area expanded, it would serve as a satellite base area that was left undeveloped, so if you wanted a resort type experience, go to the Gondola base.  However, if you wanted a more old school experience with no resort feel or base development, start at the Ski Bowl.