ORDA's operating loss increases year over year

Adk Jeff wrote

x10003q wrote

Here is the study used to justify the Gore Interconnect. It is from 2003. There is a lot of interesting material.
Money invested in ORDA pays off for NYS.
Its not rocket science.

And here's a link to the updated economic impact study from 2008: EIS 2008
The economic impact of ORDA’s operations is estimated at $271 million and 1,283 jobs regionally (Clinton, Essex, Franklin and Warren Counties), and at nearly $350 million and 1,400 jobs statewide.

That visitor spending profile mostly refers to LP/WF area. Where is the 20 mil the Phase I Gore expansion was to bring going?

Agreed. Some guys on here like to trot those nebulous projections around like they're facts written in stone.

" If the state spends 5 mill at Gore it will bring in another 20 mill, etc. Downtown NC will boom and have tons of foot traffic because of the interconnect. "

 Not sure that's happened.

The Government lies in order to get projects approved and then wastes millions of dollars from taxpayer's hard-earned paychecks?

I for one, am SHOCKED at this.  We should alert the authorities.......oh......wait.

BenedictGomez wrote

The Government lies in order to get projects approved and then wastes millions of dollars from taxpayer's hard-earned paychecks?

I for one, am SHOCKED at this.  We should alert the authorities.......oh......wait.

That gets a big ole NO SHIT!

Hey, at least the ski hills fake being a business well. Other parts of the state just spend my money better.

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/01/whats_cuomo_spending_30_million_on_at_onondaga_lake_county_legislature_chairman.html

I love this part:

"Onondaga County officials pitched the lakefront revitalization plan to Cuomo in recent days, after a proposal to build a $500 million sports stadium on the near east side of Syracuse was deemed too incomplete to include in this year's budget."

A 500 million dollar stadium next to a dying city in the middle of nowhere. Smart move.

Here's more:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/21/1271409/-Cuomo-tried-gifting-private-university-200M-for-football-stadium#

A private university, that is probably  churning out hundreds to thousands of debt slaves because tuition is so high. Amazing.

I saw that yesterday and was pissed. A PRIVATE UNIVERSITY gets $200 million? Like that dailykos article said, cities usually bow to professional sports teams because they threaten to leave the city unless a new stadium is built... But what is Syracuse University going to do? Move to Tallahassee?

And that why I dont get why you guys get ants in your pants if ORDA looses a few bucks. I did not look what the budget number is this year but the money that is sent up here is pocket change.  People get up in arms that is is driving the little guy out. Well ok may be it is but the state really is not throwing its weight around.  Seems to me the state could dump a couple hundred million into the mountains and we would never see it in out tax bills.   Line every trail with fan guns and blow all the mountains that the state owns.  WOW!! can you imigane.  I bet we would have lines then.

Agreed.

Most all political fights involve some variation of "we shouldn't spend our money on this, we should spend it on this instead". At very least, we should try not to argue against things that are in our own interests (i.e. stop complaining about ORDA, you morons - you like skiing and they like skiing. You're on the same side).

There are plenty of other wasteful budget ideas out there. When ORDA does what it can to grab some of the money, we should celebrate that.

I was talking to a cyclist the other day complaining about the cost of bike path construction. Why? Just celebrate the fact that construction is happening. You want this!

Obviously, there is a little room for arguments and opinions about effectiveness in spending and where the money goes (they should spend more on snowmaking and less on grooming, they should spend more at whiteface and less at gore, or whatever), but we should at least all agree that when ORDA gets more money, it means that people in this forum are the ones who are benefitting from it (as opposed to inner city residents of Buffalo, small business owners in Staten Island, or maids in the Hamptons).

You want more ORDA money. You need more ORDA money. Do what you can to advocate for it.

WORD.

That is the simplest, clearest, most logical opinion I've heard on this topic.

Then when they are done with that we could change the pricing structure. NYS residents get a great deal and put a huge mark up on out of staters like the SUNY's do.  YEAH now were cooking with peanut oil.

Harvey wrote

WORD.

That is the simplest, clearest, most logical opinion I've heard on this topic.

Really?  That's the precise OPPOSITE of the way I try to sort through policy issues.  I try to take myself out of it and be objective.  Simply clamoring for more stuff that I use and like makes me just another pig at the trough.

That said, I think there are a great many objective reasons to support the ORDA mission and the funding that goes along with it.

 Is it possible to put as strong a case for the money going into ORDA VS  stadium.   If you had to build whiteface from scratch what do you guess the cost?  100 million.   just to get it where it is today.    

Well, ORDA, obviously. Funding a stadium for a private university that also benefits one of the most corrupt and hypocritical organizations in sports, the NCAA, is beyond the pale. Let's not even go near how much ESPN and other forms of media will benefit.

Noah John wrote

That's the precise OPPOSITE of the way I try to sort through policy issues.  I try to take myself out of it and be objective.  Simply clamoring for more stuff that I use and like makes me just another pig at the trough.

That said, I think there are a great many objective reasons to support the ORDA mission and the funding that goes along with it.

The pig that is too good for the trough goes hungry.

As long as the trough exists, you might as well try to get your share. Nobody can advocate for your interests as well as you can.

Warren Buffett famously said that of course there is a class war and his class is winning. A lot of that has to do with the fact that the rich know how to game the system so they get the maximum benefit from it. They are not determining which policies work best for everyone and objectively choosing what to do. They're making things good for themselves. And they're kicking our ass.

Nobody's kicking my ass, Matt;  I'm right where I deserve to be.   And when I find myself somewhere else, for better or worse, I'll probably deserve that too.

Feel free to follow whatever motivations you find most compelling in your politics.  If your only motivation is your own narrow, self-interest - fine.  If that also happens to serve a larger public interest than I guess we call that a "happy coincidence".   Seems like a strange and risky way to exercise your franchise but, hey - it's your life.

Matt, I'm grossly over-simplifying here because it's a stupid ski forum and it doesn't lend itself to much more than that.  Please view my comments in that light.

Noah John wrote

Nobody's kicking my ass, Matt;  I'm right where I deserve to be.   And when I find myself somewhere else, for better or worse, I'll probably deserve that too.

Feel free to follow whatever motivations you find most compelling in your politics.  If your only motivation is your own narrow, self-interest - fine.  If that also happens to serve a larger public interest than I guess we call that a "happy coincidence".   Seems like a strange and risky way to exercise your franchise but, hey - it's your life.

Matt, I'm grossly over-simplifying here because it's a stupid ski forum and it doesn't lend itself to much more than that.  Please view my comments in that light.

Mel Brooks wrote

God darnit Noah John, you use your tongue prettier than a 20 dollar whore.

Noah John wrote

If your only motivation is your own narrow, self-interest - fine.  If that also happens to serve a larger public interest than I guess we call that a "happy coincidence".   Seems like a strange and risky way to exercise your franchise but, hey - it's your life.

They've done studies that find that people believe that public interest is amazingly equal to their own self interest. That's how people making minimum wage feel like the minimum wage should be increased while rich people don't and rich people think they should have lower taxes while poor people don't.

I realize that my specific public policy preferences may not be good for society as a whole. My views on congestion pricing, gasoline taxes, and tax rates would probably poll around the 10% level.

But, like I said, I'm really the only person that can advocate for all my positions. And it's easier for me to hold on to that idea than to try to explain to someone in the Bronx why ORDA is actually a really good public service and if you could only afford a bus ticket and a hotel and an admission ticket you'd find the World Cup skeleton luge to be really interesting.

mattchuck2 wrote

 And it's easier for me to hold on to that idea than to try to explain to someone in the Bronx why ORDA is actually a really good public service and if you could only afford a bus ticket and a hotel and an admission ticket you'd find the World Cup skeleton luge to be really interesting.

Hahaha!!  Well put.

Noah John wrote

Nobody's kicking my ass, Matt;  I'm right where I deserve to be.   And when I find myself somewhere else, for better or worse, I'll probably deserve that too.

That's some very functional thinking IMO.

Maybe I misunderstood Matt. I was trying to agree with the idea that if you are a ski fanatic, and you ski at Bell, Whiteface or Gore, your should (theoretically) be in favor of the funding of ORDA.  That's if you are acting in your own self-interest, as many humans do.

I can totally see non-skiers, or the owners of Plattekill, Hunter or Windham being against it.

When the triple is down and I'm in a line for the Gondi at Gore, I'm not thinking of my tax load, I'm thinking of skiing.  As a skier I'll dig it when the triple gets replaced.

I do think Matt is right that those in power try to structure the system to their benefit.  It's that pesky human nature.

Harvey wrote

Noah John wrote

Nobody's kicking my ass, Matt;  I'm right where I deserve to be.   And when I find myself somewhere else, for better or worse, I'll probably deserve that too.

That's some very functional thinking IMO.

 

I agree, Harv. Too bad there aren't enough people who "attack" life with that kind of thinking. IMO, too many Americans are idly standing in line with their hands out looking for  freebies in life. Nothing good comes from those actions.