ORDA's operating loss increases year over year

x10003q wrote

Here is the study used to justify the Gore Interconnect. It is from 2003. There is a lot of interesting material.
Money invested in ORDA pays off for NYS.
Its not rocket science.

And here's a link to the updated economic impact study from 2008: EIS 2008
The economic impact of ORDA’s operations is estimated at $271 million and 1,283 jobs regionally (Clinton, Essex, Franklin and Warren Counties), and at nearly $350 million and 1,400 jobs statewide.

Coach Z wrote

Those "other post retirement" expenses are killer.

Yes, they are.  That's for pensions and post-retirement healthcare.  That line item would be zero for any other ski area in the private sector. And yes, it's the same deal that's killing our town/county/school taxes across the state.

Coach Z wrote

There was a guy on the Gondi talking about how there are 3 top management types due to retire soon that are going to "break the bank".  Just repeating what I heard and I don't know how accurate this is. The one thing I don't see in the annual report is a discussion of executive pay, perks, and retirement provisions.  In any public companies filings this is a madatory disclosure but it seems its not required for state agencies.

The guys on the gondi are likely clueless.  I have no idea who's due to retire soon, but top management salaries at ORDA are modest compared to the private sector.  Believe me, nobody at ORDA is breaking anyone's bank.  There might be 2 guys making 6 figures.  IMO the GMs are underpaid for the amount of responsibility they have.  You can look up the salary of any NYS worker (school teachers, office workers, ORDA guys, everybody) right on the interwebs.  I forget the exact website address but it shouldn't be too difficult to track down.

Adk Jeff wrote

Coach Z wrote

Those "other post retirement" expenses are killer.

Yes, they are.  That's for pensions and post-retirement healthcare.  That line item would be zero for any other ski area in the private sector. And yes, it's the same deal that's killing our town/county/school taxes across the state.

And Governor Andy just announced a bunch of tax cuts, in, of course, an election year. Like that's going to help pay for the nation's highest Medicade and Medicare bill. Let's not even attempt to total up the enormous pension costs. It's kind of stunning how short sighted both the politicians and citizens of New York are.

Medicare isn't funded by the states.  Just sayin'.  No disagreement about the pensions.  It's a problem here and elsewhere.

Adk Jeff wrote

Coach Z wrote

Those "other post retirement" expenses are killer.

Yes, they are.  That's for pensions and post-retirement healthcare.  That line item would be zero for any other ski area in the private sector. And yes, it's the same deal that's killing our town/county/school taxes across the state.

Ok, why would that line item " be zero for any other ski area in the private sector " ?

Becuase the only jobs left in the country that offer pensions and life long health care are govt jobs.  Eeveryone else in private businesses is on a 401K with a match and no retirement health care thru the employer.  Those expenses are current expenses incurred in the year the 401k match was given to the employee.  In the case of pensions and the health care these liabilities defer to later years or decades and don't go away until an employee dies.

I'm sorry Snowballs but how could anyone not know that?

That I did know Coach. What I'm curious about is did Jeff's statement have any connection/reflection to this one from the Comptroller's office regarding ORDA's report......

" But an authority’s mandated annual financial reports to the state “shouldn’t” include fringe-benefit increases, officials said " (Not saying this quote was on Jeff's mind)


And another one I saw on the news that NY agency pension costs are paid by the Legislature.

Furthermore, it's quite possible some private ski areas DO have pensions, retirement healthcare, etc for some employees and if so why would they not be normally included ?

Snowballs wrote

Furthermore, it's quite possible some private ski areas DO have pensions, retirement healthcare, etc for some employees and if so why would they not be normally included ?

Now you are just being obtuse.

Coach Z wrote

Becuase the only jobs left in the country that offer pensions and life long health care are govt jobs.  Eeveryone else in private businesses is on a 401K with a match and no retirement health care...

This isn't true. CEOs and other upper management types usually have very generous retirement packages with pensions. It's the working stiffs that get shafted.

Also, the New York State Retirement Fund, 3rd largest in the nation, is actually very well managed these days. And there's been a lot of reforms for new employees that should boost it even more (workers have to contribute their whole careers, etc.). We're not talking about Detroit here.

401k plans are the real scam.

mattchuck2 wrote

401k plans are the real scam.

Nope. I hear that all the time theses days, and I fear that millions are using that excuse not to use them. If you have one available to you, participate by contributing at least 10%, and allocate into index funds if they are available. I know that a lot of plans are way too expensive when it comes to fees, and offer limited and lousy fund choices, but, really, better than nothing. It's a great tax dodge for thirty years, too. If your employer offers a match, it's a no brainer.

If I didn't have one available to me for the last few decades, I would be in deep stuff right now, trying to "retire" or whatever you call it. If you don't have a 401k available, do automatic checking account withdrawals into a Roth IRA. You'll thank me when you're 62. If I'm still alive.

I meant in comparison to guaranteed pensions, not in comparison to nothing.

But thanks for the lesson, Chief.

mattchuck2 wrote

Also, the New York State Retirement Fund, 3rd largest in the nation, is actually very well managed these days. And there's been a lot of reforms for new employees that should boost it even more (workers have to contribute their whole careers, etc.). We're not talking about Detroit here.

That's the state. And, personally, I don't trust the numbers, considering how politicians have a habit of lying about such things, especially when billions of dollars are involved, but, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Looks like we won't hit the wall as soon as Illinois or California.

But, the problem will be counties and localities. Cuomo himself said the other day in his address that, since the state is cutting taxes, therefore, revenue, the obligations will fall on local governments to tighten up and spend better. In other words, Albany won't have your back when your finances sink. So, all of these towns around here in Westchester that have been paying cops 200,000 a year with awesome retirement benefits are looking at a nasty future paying for that. Furgetabout a lot of upstate towns and cities that have limited revenues, if at all.
Have you noticed how much property taxes have jumped in the past few years all over the state. I go on Zillow every now and then and check out some cool properties upstate and think, damn, I can afford that, until I see the tax bill. Saratoga doubled in the last five years. Really. Somebody has to pay for all of this.

Coach Z wrote

Everyone else in private businesses is on a 401K with a match and no retirement health care thru the employer.

Not everyone gets a match.  I'd love one but our little company doesn't do it.

Essentially we have "profit sharing" which means that the company contributes to your 401k at a percentage (0-15%) of your salary based on profit. That percent has been 0 every year since 2008.

Benny is exactly right about investing IMO.  Get a reputable (ie low cost) provider like Vanguard or Fidelity, get some kind of mix of stocks/bond/cash that makes sense and just contribute at least 10% consistently your whole life - especially when the market is "bad."  Bad is good.

People are so funny. Nobody would ever say "I'm not buying anything from that store because everything is on sale."

Benny is also right IMO about ROTH being best.

Contribute to your 401k to get what ever match is available. Put the rest in a ROTH. If you can max out your ROTH go back and put more in your 401k.

mattchuck2 wrote

I meant in comparison to guaranteed pensions, not in comparison to nothing.

But thanks for the lesson, Chief.

Hmmm…….maybe not. Ask the retired cops and fireman of Central Falls, Rhode Island. The Stockton and San Bernardino retirees are somewhat protected by state laws and Calpers covering their back, but, the lawyers are still battling on that one. It really doesn't look too good for Detroit retirees. All of those people, and millions of other public employees think their pensions and health benefits are written in stone, but, even if the courts say they have to get paid more in their retired life than they received in their working life, you can't get blood from that stone. Or, maybe,  you just tax the hell out of those who are left paying taxes. That won't work out too well. It's a big country, and the low tax non legacy regions want you to live there.

I'm happy to have control of my own savings. Some say that private savings could be confiscated by the government, ala Argentina and Cyprus, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened, but the stuff really has to hit the fan before that happens. When only a small percentage of Americans have any kind of substantial personal savings to use, that's a small voting block compared to the great majority of old people about to enter their late 60s and 70s with jack. Who do you think the politicians are going to pander to?

   So, do we boycott the state and avoid ORDA mountains or support them and take advantage of our tax dollars? Like it's such a better deal. Isn't the state budget over $130 Billion with a B? I think we're splitting hairs on this one complaining about less than 10 million.

Snowballs wrote

That I did know Coach. What I'm curious about is did Jeff's statement have any connection/reflection to this one from the Comptroller's office regarding ORDA's report......
" But an authority’s mandated annual financial reports to the state “shouldn’t” include fringe-benefit increases, officials said " (Not saying this quote was on Jeff's mind)

No, I didn’t have that in mind.  I’m just pointing out what actually is in ORDA’s P&L, not whether it should be or not.

Snowballs wrote

Furthermore, it's quite possible some private ski areas DO have pensions, retirement healthcare, etc for some employees and if so why would they not be normally included ?

Well, there’s a dearth of available information, but I think Coach’s generalization is accurate that the only jobs offering pensions and post-retirement healthcare are in the public (government) sector.  Vail Resorts doesn’t.  I know that because their audited financials are required to disclose post-retirement benefits if there were any, and there is no such disclosure.  Instead, there is this disclosure:
“Footnote 17. Retirement and Profit Sharing Plans. The Company maintains a defined contribution retirement plan qualified under Section 401(k) of the Internal Revenue Code, for its employees… The Company will match an amount equal to 50% of each participant's contribution up to 6% of a participant's bi-weekly qualifying compensation… Total Retirement Plan expense recognized by the Company for the year ended July 31, 2013 was $3.7 million.”
So Vail’s got a pretty typical 401k plan that you see in Corporate America, with a reasonably generous match.  You can see it didn’t cost them much (total wages and benefits are approx $330 million, so it’s just 1% of their total compensation expenses).  By contrast, ORDA’s post-retirement benefits add $3.6 million to wages and benefits of $22.2 million, so an additional 16%.  If Vail had the burden of those post-retirement benefits, it would have eliminated virtually all of their pre-tax earnings for 2013.

mattchuck2 wrote

CEOs and other upper management types usually have very generous retirement packages with pensions. It's the working stiffs that get shafted.

No doubt.  But the dollars in those CEO compensation packages are in stock-based and incentive compensation, not traditional pensions.  

mattchuck2 wrote

Also, the New York State Retirement Fund, 3rd largest in the nation, is actually very well managed these days. And there's been a lot of reforms for new employees that should boost it even more (workers have to contribute their whole careers, etc.). We're not talking about Detroit here.

This is true, but NYS taxpayers are still stuck with huge “legacy” costs.  That’s what those ORDA post-retirement expenses are, legacy costs.  

This discussion is still going on on a Saturday?  Jeez don't you guys like go skiing on the weekend?

It rained. Really hard.

Ma Nature took a crap today.

Shame it wasn't a dump.

It's just a little rain.  Put on your goretex and ski.  The snow is always good in the rain.

Today (Sunday) is a different kettle of fish.  Wind hold and below freezing temps after a rain day are ugly.  Having another cup of coffee and waiting to see if it warms up or not.

Coach Z wrote

It's just a little rain.  Put on your goretex and ski.  The snow is always good in the rain.
.

+1
 had a great time skiing yesterday. Congratulations coach on your son's race!