ORDA's operating loss increases year over year

witch hobble wrote

Coach Z wrote

 I'm not really sure what benefit the union provides to the Orda employees.  Maybe some one can educate us on that. It certainly hurt ski instructors in this case though.

*my info is 5  years out of date, so take it with a grain of salt, or the whole shakerFull time seasonal orda employees in the bargaining unit received 4 paid holidays and 1 paid personal day over the course of the winter.  With the withholding from paycheck over the course of Nov to April it basically was a wash.

so you are saying that the union dues cost a seasonal employee the roughly one weeks pay a winter?  That seems pretty steep to me and would make me wonder why anyone would want to be in the union.  Are there any other benefits or is the union just lining their pockets?

I totally agree with Jeff that the big difference between Orda run ski areas and almost every other major ski area in the country that I can think of (except Cannon which is in the state run boat as well) is  the revenue and profit from Lodging and Real Estate.  Sell one Condo for a $200k profit and it takes a boat load of lift tickets to make that much $$$.

Another difference is that Orda outsources more of their revenue stream than any other ski area that I am aware of.  Centerplate is contracted to provide all the highly profitable food service, retail, and even rentals which normally are a cash cow for a ski area.  They do this so that they do not have to invest capital in the rental fleet and the infrastructure of the food service.  Capital is hard to come by for state run businesses and it lowers risk in a bad snow year as the get a fixed fee plus a small percentage of sales.  It also lowers the numbers of state workers which would have to be paid the higher benefit costs though I'm not sure this really is higher or not except maybe for management becuase it does  not look like anyone is getting rich working at Orda to me except the top management.  On the negative side Orda loses highly profitable revenue streams that drive profits in most other ski areas.

I'm happy to see this discussion back on a postive track though I did learn that Noah is probably an english teacher as he seems obessed with grammer.  

Coach Z wrote

he seems obessed with grammer.  

  One comment = "obsessed"?  Please.  If I was truly "obsessed" I'd point out that you misspelled "obsessed".  

That fine line just got a little finer.

i think you just did - spelling / grammer is overrated

I had an arguement with my son's ELA teacher on her focus on cursive writing.  In our cyber age cursive is as relevant as buggy whips.  Noah I bet you have perfect cursive writing.  

My handwriting, cursive or otherwise, is atrocious.  I often can't read it myself so I'll bring it to my secretary (oh, excuse me, "administrative assistant") and she'll decipher it for me.
Oh, and spelling is overrated (as is handwriting) but grammar certainly isn't.  Clear and concise writing doesn't happen by accident.

The funding for BR was from the state.

http://poststar.com/news/gore-given-m-for-expansion/article_e6316e31-3286-5aad-bf06-b4be45021f3c.html

" The $7 million announced Friday is in addition to $5.5 million in state funding state Sen. Elizabeth Little, R-Queensbury, arranged to connect Gore Mountain with the North Creek Ski Bowl and a proposed private resort development. "

Then, after BR was done, this came along...

http://poststar.com/news/local/orda-set-for-million-boost-in-state-funding/article_e759ec84-80f3-11e1-a535-0019bb2963f4.html

" The $4 million in cash comes in addition to the more than $5 million ORDA receives in regular operation funding from the state. "

The final tally of state money may have varied somewhat, but it's easy to see large amounts go to ORDA annually.

http://poststar.com/news/local/orda-criticizes-comptroller-s-audit-plans/article_b10093be-97ee-11e2-9cff-0019bb2963f4.html

" State auditors concluded, based on ORDA’s own annual financial reports, that 40 percent of ORDA’s purchases weren’t sent out to competitive bid. The preliminary report also noted a 20 percent increase in ORDA’s total compensation since 2008, while the organization that runs Gore and Whiteface mountains operates at a $16.9 million loss. "

" But an authority’s mandated annual financial reports to the state “shouldn’t” include fringe-benefit increases, officials said "


Things may be all fine at ORDA, but they may not be. Their very thin and extremely vague financial reports that Jeff cites lack many important details and are certainly not up to gaap. That is a huge red flag. With all due respect to Jeff, saying they are certified reports is a bunch of meaningless yada yada. Any financial scandal you've ever seen had teams of accounts and lawyers " certifying " reports that later turned out to be gravely wrong.

Given all the very large cost savings I listed earlier and the fact that the State throws very large amounts of money their way and yet they still claim a $16.9 mill loss ? They deserve scrutiny.

Snowballs wrote

Noah John wrote

Snowballs wrote

Oh yea. no doubt the US Olympic committee also kicks in money to ORDA and the programs up there. Plus there's many corporate sponsorships.

So what?

So it's more income. That effects the bottom line WHICH effects whether there's a profit or not.

Got it?

the biggest corporate sponsorship Chevy gives ORDA 10 vehicles to use.  Private mountains don't have corporate sponsorships?  Really?

Of course private mtns get corp sponsorships. Who said they didn't ?

 I still dont understand what your problem is. other than  my grammar.

What bothers you so much about the arrangement?

tjf1967 wrote

I still dont understand what your problem is. other than  my grammar.

What bothers you so much about the arrangement?

I'd like to know too.  He and the other mouth breathers get so torqued about this topic.  Why?

At the risk of getting accused of beating a dead horse, I’ll add my understanding of the funding of improvements.

Harvey wrote

I am not clear on where money for new lifts comes from.  Burnt Ridge Quad was 5M - was that completely financed or did the state help?  I assumed there was tax money making that happen.
Much of the new snow gun stuff at Gore has come through energy grants. But there was some cash outlay too.  Not sure how that is paid for but in the long run those HKD lower operating cost.

As Snowballs pointed out, funding for most capital projects (Burnt Ridge, the LP Convention Center, etc.) comes from state grants that are separate from and in addition to the annual state appropriation that funds the operating shortfall.  Those grants are a capital contribution, which is accounted for on ORDA’s balance sheet as an increase in “Net Position” (which represents “owner’s equity” or the net value of the state’s “stake” in ORDA) and an increase in “Property Plant & Equipment,” aka PP&E.  Those two line items keep the balance sheet in balance.   So in Harv’s example of the BRQ, PP&E and Net Position would both go up by $5 million in the year that the grant was made and the money was spent.  There’s no impact on the P&L, except for the depreciation amount that flows through each year.  Everyone should go to the Balance Sheet in the most recent audited financials (page 13) to see what I’m talking about, here.

Something like 85% of ORDA’s $76.5 million in infrastructure assets (PP&E) are funded and accounted for this way.  The remaining assets (approx $10 million) are long-term capital leases.  About half of that amount is for leased snowmaking compressors.  I suspect the other half is for other snowmaking equipment (fan guns maybe) and perhaps groomers or other “heavy equipment” type stuff.  When ORDA signs the lease and takes delivery of the equipment, the full value of the equipment goes onto the balance sheet as PP&E and there is an offsetting liability, “Capital Lease Obligations.”  There is an interest component to the lease, so in addition to the depreciation amount that flows through the P&L each year there is also some interest expense.  There is no other borrowing on ORDA’s balance sheet (except for a working capital line of credit), so ORDA’s total interest expense is pretty low ($400K on the P&L).

Snowballs wrote

Things may be all fine at ORDA, but they may not be. Their very thin and extremely vague financial reports that Jeff cites lack many important details and are certainly not up to gaap. That is a huge red flag. With all due respect to Jeff, saying they are certified reports is a bunch of meaningless yada yada. Any financial scandal you've ever seen had teams of accounts and lawyers " certifying " reports that later turned out to be gravely wrong.

Given all the very large cost savings I listed earlier and the fact that the State throws very large amounts of money their way and yet they still claim a $16.9 mill loss ? They deserve scrutiny.

Actually the financials are GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles), which doesn’t necessarily mean that they are easy to understand or that they contain every detail that every user might want. This is the independent auditor’s certification from pages 1 & 2: “In our opinion, the financial statements referred to above present fairly, in all material respects, the respective financial position of the business type activities and cash flows of the Authority, as of March 31, 2013, and the respective changes in financial position thereof for the year then ended in accordance with accounting principles generally accepted in the United States of America.”  While it is certainly possible that there is some as yet undetected scandal going on at ORDA, I’ll wait to raise the BS flag on the financials until such scandal is revealed.

Coach Z wrote

Spelling / grammer is overrated

You know there’s no “e” in grammar, right?

I'm switching from sales to accounting

I've got this crap down now

Thanks Adk Jeff!!

tjf1967 wrote

I still dont understand what your problem is. other than  my grammar.

What bothers you so much about the arrangement?

Screw that guy, TJ ---- I've got your back buddy

Here is the study used to justify the Gore Interconnect. It is from 2003. There is a lot of interesting material.

Economic Impact Study of the Gore Mountain Interconnect

This is an important paragraph discussing the reason to increase skier visits (from page 7, my italics and bold):
"In general, for the destination skier, every dollar spent on lift tickets generates additional spending
on food, transportation, equipment, lodging, and nightlife activities. This additional spending is defined
as secondary spending. Typically, ski resorts have used a 1:5 spending ratio to measure the regional
impact of a dollar spent on the mountain, but we are using a more conservative approach by using a 1:4
spending ratio as suggested by the “Ski Area of New York.” Therefore, the additional $1.85 million in
skiing revenue expected from the completion of the 2002 UMP will increase the impact on the local
economy by $7.4 million."


Money invested in ORDA pays off for NYS.

Its not rocket science.

Those "other post retirement" expenses are killer. I assume this is the same issue that most states and town are facing where retired workers have benefits that far exceed what is available in private businesses. The question is are these due to the regular union line and staff employees who in my mind have earned everything they have coming or higher management types that have big pay days.

There was a guy on the Gondi talking about how there are 3 top management types due to retire soon that are going to "break the bank".  Just repeating what I heard and I don't know how accurate this is. The one thing I don't see in the annual report is a discussion of executive pay, perks, and retirement provisions.  In any public companies filings this is a madatory disclosure but it seems its not required for state agencies.

Thanks Camp.  Us dumb dumbs need to stick together.  

tjf1967 wrote

Thanks Camp.  Us dumb dumbs need to stick together.

WORD

x10003q wrote

Here is the study used to justify the Gore Interconnect. It is from 2003. There is a lot of interesting material.

Economic Impact Study of the Gore Mountain Interconnect

This is an important paragraph discussing the reason to increase skier visits (from page 7, my italics and bold):
"In general, for the destination skier, every dollar spent on lift tickets generates additional spending
on food, transportation, equipment, lodging, and nightlife activities. This additional spending is defined
as secondary spending. Typically, ski resorts have used a 1:5 spending ratio to measure the regional
impact of a dollar spent on the mountain, but we are using a more conservative approach by using a 1:4
spending ratio as suggested by the “Ski Area of New York.” Therefore, the additional $1.85 million in
skiing revenue expected from the completion of the 2002 UMP will increase the impact on the local
economy by $7.4 million."


Money invested in ORDA pays off for NYS.

Its not rocket science.

It wouldn't appear that the 1:4 ratio was even close to being met for the area

Sounds like someone needs a tall glass of kool aid. What flavor do you like?