Plunge: The Catskill Beast?

snoloco wrote

Look, my parents both work in the Northeast, so that's where I'm staying for the foreseeable future.  I picked Clarkson because they have a program where you can go a year early.

You have no respect for those who don't think the same way as you.  If you say that those who truly love skiing don't live in NY, then why do you live in NY?  You must not truly love skiing then.

Why does it matter to you if one ski area blows a ribbon of snow?  Why would anyone care unless they want to ski it.  You're obviously biased and don't care about lift served skiing, but you don't just not care about it, you're vehemently opposed to it.  You can try walk it back and say you're not, but it's not hard to see through it.  Most people don't really care about lift served skiing except for those who do it, and radical environmentalists who protest everything that's going to result in a single tree being cut down.

I warned you...

Listen jackass, first off, you completely ignored anything that had any relevance when you could not support your argument.

Then you went and again made the statement about 10k years in the past and tepees and some shit.  Don't be a fucking moron.  I'm thinking so fucking far ahead of you, you think I'm thinking 10k years in the past.  I'm 50 years in the future.  I work on shit that comes out 20 years in the future.  You're so stuck in your suburban cry to mommy and daddy white bread world that you can't see the forest from the trees.

Did you notice I didn't say boo to anyone who didn't rationalize their support?

I do love skiing, and who cares how or where I ski.  No one actually.  I do so with the least impact I can because I truly believe that is what this sport is about.

I also clearly stated that I like the change of the seasons and don't mind doing other low impact activities that I enjoy during the months without snow.  Something other than skiing.  You even responded to my post dipshit.

I guess I have no problem adapting to the weather.  If I didn't like the weather in the North East, well, the smart thing to do might be to move somewhere where the weather is more amenable to my lifestyle.  We're lucky we have that freedom unlike some other people of the world.

To me, you bitching about blowing snow reads the same to me as the other assholes bitching the entire winter about a few flakes.  GTFO.  I understand some people have real ties that make it much harder to move, but you don't.  Or didn't.  You shit in your own bed, now sleep in it, and quit trying to shit in mine.

And Ethan - use your goddamn brain.  What kind of magic pixie dust do those groomers run on?  Rob from Peter to pay Paul.  It's all the same in the end.

Damn man, you're going to flame Ethan now?  What did he say to deserve it?  He has a vision for how to make ski areas better, just like I do.  Why do you have such a gripe about it?  It's just a way that we entertain ourselves in the off season.

Harvey, this WAS a good thread.  Someone seems to have made it drift astray.  It seems as though he would be better off espousing his cause on an environmental forum rather than a New York State ski forum.  At the very least, perhaps it would be a better idea to start a thread about the environmental impact of ski areas and snow making rather than ruin another thread.  

It's OK to debate things in a civilized constructive way (although that's rare on the internet).  This thread is one person chained to a tree screaming into a megaphone to keep any normal conversation from happening.

I would go on a nice bluebird Saturday- Ski/MTB/Party in the lot...  

They should offer camping and allow things to get rowdy.  

Ski/MTB/swap/demos/music fest.  

Shit even get Saturday T-O-P-L-E-S-S bump contest and Pantsless Sunday Downhill MTB race..  Make it a big weekend with live entertainment, camping...  I think this is plausible financially.

Environmentally... I get it.

Marcski wrote

Harvey, this WAS a good thread.  Someone seems to have made it drift astray.  It seems as though he would be better off espousing his cause on an environmental forum rather than a New York State ski forum.  At the very least, perhaps it would be a better idea to start a thread about the environmental impact of ski areas and snow making rather than ruin another thread.

Why dude?  If you don't like my opposition to this, whine to the mods and ban me.  This is a free forum right?  I oppose the idea, and I gave multiple examples why I do.  It's not the whole industry, but rather adding to the already monstrous usage of the industry.

Like I say, if you want to stroke each other's weenies and sing kumbaya, ban anyone who opposes your ideals and do whatever the fuck you want.

This is VERY related to skiing, and is very relevant.  Because you don't agree and feel that way, you think I'm drifting the thread.

Censor me muthafucka!

MikeK wrote

Like I say, if you want to stroke each other's weenies and sing kumbaya, ban anyone who opposes your ideals and do whatever the fuck you want.

I don't really think this forum is like that.  Most people disagree with me, but I try to argue my perspective instead of taking it personally, cursing people out, and screaming "BAN ME".  If you noticed, I said that I didn't think it would make sense for Plattekill to push the season as it wouldn't likely be profitable.  I said it in a straight up civilized way instead of denigrating anyone and saying that they were wasteful, greedy, snobs.

snoloco wrote

MikeK wrote

Like I say, if you want to stroke each other's weenies and sing kumbaya, ban anyone who opposes your ideals and do whatever the fuck you want.

I don't really think this forum is like that.  Most people disagree with me, but I try to argue my perspective instead of taking it personally, cursing people out, and screaming "BAN ME".  If you noticed, I said that I didn't think it would make sense for Plattekill to push the season as it wouldn't likely be profitable.  I said it in a straight up civilized way instead of denigrating anyone and saying that they were wasteful, greedy, snobs.

No it really is, you just don't see it.

You may think I'm just setting up a straw man to knock it down and piss everyone off, but it's simply not true.  Look at my track record.  I've ALWAYS spoke out against this.

And I started off very civil.  It's only when it escalated did I bring the same thing to the table.

You expect me to just go away and accept your rationalized arguments that you know, in a little part of your head, are wrong.  You know by pushing forward for something like this you become part of the problem, and not the solution.  Sno, you know so many people oppose you because all you talk about is development with no regard to environmental impacts.

I ask them to ban me if they don't want to hear my side.  What's the easiest way to shut out anyone who doesn't fit your narrow little view?  Toss 'em.  It's fine, Harv probably should have tossed me long ago, but I know he has that voice in his head.

And most of the people that are posting here are likely Platte locals and are taking this personally.  I have ZERO personal stake in this.  I only care on principle.  And that is the INCREDIBLE IRONY that the ski seasons get shorter and shorter, and less snowier due to our climate change so in order to remedy that, we waste more energy, no doubt at the expense of releasing more carbon into the atmosphere which just adds to the issue.  Like I say, I can't fix our existing problems, but I can speak out on new ones, and if I had some legal discourse, I would exercise it.  None exists that I know of, so my only prayer is a couple people think of this as a step in the wrong direction and don't contribute.  Then maybe by supply and demand it will go away on it's own.  I'm doubtful, but it won't stop me from trying.

I would oppose this if it was the original Killington idea.  I would oppose it if it was out west.  I told you, the only way, I could, in good conscience ever promote something like this is if I felt that the problems it creates, had been solved, at least in the short term.  But we are no where close to that, so everytime I see the scales tip the other way, I'm going to scream.  Someone has to.  

You've used more fallacies than I can list.  Slippery slope, argument ad-hominem, appeal to emotion, false causation, straw man, and appeal to false authority are just a few.  

that is the INCREDIBLE IRONY that the ski seasons get shorter and shorter, and less snowier due to our climate change so in order to remedy that, we waste more energy, no doubt at the expense of releasing more carbon into the atmosphere which just adds to the issue.  

Good point.

MikeK wrote

I ask them to ban me if they don't want to hear my side.  What's the easiest way to shut out anyone who doesn't fit your narrow little view?  Toss 'em.  It's fine, Harv probably should have tossed me long ago, but I know he has that voice in his head.

I do have that voice. Like I said all humans, and Americans especially, are degrading the environment. If I was to become a single issue voter, it would be the environment. It amazes me that the quality of our air and water is partisan. We all want our children to thrive.

But "the voice" is not the reason I haven't banned you. I'm not sure what you've done that is banworthy.  Not liking me isn't really a reason to ban someone.  Having a different opinion to the majority isn't a reason.

Obviously I thought this thread would be a fun/fantasy thing not a discussion on the environment. Really every thread here, or at least every on topic thread could go that way.  It would be ideal if you'd start those threads separately.  As a moderator I'm guessing you probably know that.

Harvey wrote

I do have that voice. Like I said all humans, and Americans especially, are degrading the environment. If I was to become a single issue voter, it would be the environment. It amazes me that the quality of our air and water is partisan. We all want our children to thrive.

But "the voice" is not the reason I haven't banned you. I'm not sure what you've done that is banworthy.  Not liking me isn't really a reason to ban someone.  Having a different opinion to the majority isn't a reason.

Obviously I thought this thread would be a fun/fantasy thing not a discussion on the environment. Really every thread here, or at least every on topic thread could go that way.  It would be ideal if you'd start those threads separately.  As a moderator I'm guessing you probably know that.

I don't dislike you Harv.  I was just decided I didn't want to pursue a relationship with you any further than this.  It's just me - I sometimes get something from someone that really makes me say, is this person worth being around in real life?  It's hard to say this without being mean, but you just did something that threw a flag for me, and obviously I lashed out at you and let you know.

Hey, I didn't want to rain on your parade, but I thought you had put this out as a semi-serious proposal.  I said I thought it was wasteful, it kept going, and I pointed out many reasons in opposition to people's rationalizations.  Then of course, like everything, it got a little off the rails... hey, if I was modding I would have intervened and tried to calm everyone down before it went there.  I'm not saying you are doing it wrong, my comments to you previously were just clarity on where you draw the line and people emailing complaints.  It's fairly obvious I have a lot of people who don't think too kindly of me on here, and I'm fine with that.  When I first signed up here I thought that being on a local board might help me find people with similar skiing/outdoor interests and we could have some meetups.  I quickly realized this board is already fairly polarized with cliques of individuals and there is a lot of political and personal discussion that pushes the limits, and that a lot of people don't share my philosophies.  I'm cool with that too.

I admit I'm being harsh on Sno - but he has beyond pushed my buttons.  I know I need to step away and leave him be.  I think I'm still hanging onto that "dad" vibe and can relate to his career path a bit.  Sometimes makes me extra cagey with him.

Anyway, I seriously didn't think opposition to something was thread drift.  If I need to make my own thread to oppose a topic in an active thread, well then that is news to me.

And I'm serious, I understand banning.  Many forums ban people that don't fit their ideals.  You can choose to do that if you like.  Or if you don't, you may have to occasionally deal with someone not agreeing with the main group.

I was serious about the proposal. Still I think it's a long shot. Plattekill is the only small ski area in the Cats that survived and the reason is that Laz thinks hard about the risks he takes.

I've never seen a forum of any size where groups/alliances don't form. I don't think NYSB is any different in that regard. People gravitate towards others who share their world view.

Regarding my moderation approach, I'm not sure I really have one. Not really doing any moderation is easier in some ways, IMO it's easier to be consistent.  I just don't have the time to read and evaluate each post.  I've lurked on your forums a few times and it seems you are different person over there, even, measured and well-respected by members.

I do want more nordic on NYSB and slowly it is happening I think. I definitely tried to encourage you to post. I enjoyed our chats, but to me friends are people you know and like.  Apologies if I gave the impression I wanted some kind of relationship.

You can sign me up for a few visits.

Mike K - your unrelenting line in the sand about energy usage looks silly when we are discussing an area that is open about 3 days a week, especially when the other 3 Catskill areas are running 7 days a week and using a boatload more energy for a lot more snowmaking and lift operation. By the way, 29 posts stating the essentially the same thing over and over and over and over makes you look crazy.

Harvey wrote

Regarding my moderation approach, I'm not sure I really have one. Not really doing any moderation is easier in some ways, IMO it's easier to be consistent.  I just don't have the time to read and evaluate each post.  I've lurked on your forums a few times and it seems you are different person over there, even, measured and well-respected by members.

Our crowd is different.  I'm good friends with the guy who owns the board.  It's a totally different vibe.  I felt like I completely betrayed them by adding that shit here, frankly, where it doesn't belong.  Your crowd is highly resort driven, highly alpine focused.  The crowd there is very much the opposite.

I act according to my audience.  You've talked to me on the phone, how did you perceive me?  If you met me in person you'd probably perceive me the same way.

I didn't expect anything from you Harv.  You expected something from me and put me in an awkward situation I didn't really like.  That's all I really mean.  I chose not to speak to you off the board anymore, because I got the impression you were a different person than I thought you were.  You seem to think the same of me, so no matter...

And by that token I guess I'm extra surprised that you would support something like this.  I guess the voice that tells you to ski is louder than the voice that tells you this is the wrong direction.

x10003q wrote

You can sign me up for a few visits.

Mike K - your unrelenting line in the sand about energy usage looks silly when we are discussing an area that is open about 3 days a week, especially when the other 3 Catskill areas are running 7 days a week and using a boatload more energy for a lot more snowmaking and lift operation. By the way, 29 posts stating the essentially the same thing over and over and over and over makes you look crazy.

Good, so ski at those ones in May.

And thanks for your expert analysis of my mental state.  Noted.

well that was interesting...

There is a serious amount of strum and drang in this thread.  MikeK why do you think you know best what to spend energy on?

Wouldn't a market based solution of a carbon tax take care of your concerns and let people decide what they want to spend there money(energy) on

Also, Mike, it's the internet - fucking relax

Holy drama. I think that's all I got at this point.

noip wrote

well that was interesting...

There is a serious amount of strum and drang in this thread.  MikeK why do you think you know best what to spend energy on?

Wouldn't a market based solution of a carbon tax take care of your concerns and let people decide what they want to spend there money(energy) on

Also, Mike, it's the internet - fucking relax

I'm sure I've stated reasons for all those things in one of my 30? posts.  If I point out the obvious to you, I'll be criticized for saying the same thing over and over.

But fuck, I can't resist... NO - my example was EPA regs on vehicles.  Do you know about the VW Diesel scandal?  Can putting a carbon tax on vehicles solve that issue?  No.  The VW cars that were tricking the EPA driving cycle were actually getting better economy at the expense of increased emissions.  Money cannot solve these issues.  It's an issue of conscientiousness on the end of the people involved.  Obviously peoples motives cannot be trusted, so we need to have agencies to police this.  No such thing exists for the ski world.  But why let it go to that and then bitch when the government has to limit business?  It's all the self-fulfilling prophecy and this:

MikeK wrote

that is the INCREDIBLE IRONY that the ski seasons get shorter and shorter, and less snowy due to our climate change so in order to remedy that, we waste more energy, no doubt at the expense of releasing more carbon into the atmosphere which just adds to the issue.  

and the overwhelming attitude that it's not this little thing that causes the issues, it's all the other things I can point my finger at and blame someone else for.  No one can be accountable because it's only one tiny drop in the bucket.  All the other resorts are worse!

I'm perfectly calm.  I don't like that snot-nosed kid, but who does really?

Back to the topic, what would the costs be to keep the area open for a few extra weeks vs. what would have to made during those extra weeks to make it worth it for Plattekill? I don't think it adds up as a win for the mountain but I have no idea.