hydrofracking yay or nay

I grew up next to one of the refineries that the current keystone pipeline feeds.  Oil money put me through college.  It also provided me my first "real" job... so I might be biased.  

I've also had the "joy" of having just about every single special interest group involving fracking on my stage... from both sides.  Both sides have their arguments... and both sides are full of shit.  Most of the people who hold up the dirty water are pissed that they have to filter their water... since when do you not filter your well water?  I grew up in the midwest... if you did not filter your well water you grew a tail.  The pro-fracking guys also say that it is a simple process, its not.  It can cause issues.  

It also kills me that in the EXACT same place people are fighting fracking, they are also fighting "big wind": http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/nyregion/judd-hirschs-wind-power-plan-unsettles-catskill-town.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Here is the deal people.  We need the power to come from somewhere.  We want to run our stuff.  We want our ski lifts to turn.  We want our snow guns to fire.  We can't play not in my back yard forever.  I would love to see a wind farm pop up on Gore.  I would love to see more nuclear plants.  But... this is what it is.  If we want energy, it has to come from somewhere.  If we have to frack, regulate the hell out of it.  Inspect it.  Tax it to pay for the oversight.

Cuomo won't be fracking anytime soon.  The protesters are no longer showing up at his events.  This is pretty much a shelved thing in NYS until the next person gets in office.  

Adk Jeff wrote

As much as I appreciate the stewardship that guys like this represent, it's not an valid argument for fracking.  The 82 yr old farmer didn't buy his farm (or inherit it) with the expectation of someday leasing it for hydraulic fracturing.  Instead, fracking came along many years later, with all the promises of a big bucks payout.  Kind of like winning the lottery.  Not everybody gets to win the lottery.

Never said it was an argument for fracking. I said fracking would save this farm along with many, MANY, other farms in our area.

Again, all I know is I have 2 friends who frack....they've been doing it for a while now with no issues to the environment.....they make serious cash....jobs like that are needed here in CNY.

I'd like to think it can be regulated and safe....but I'm sure I'm wrong because obiously the "right people" aren't making enough  money off of it yet.

campgottagopee wrote

Never said it was an argument for fracking. I said fracking would save this farm along with many, MANY, other farms in our area.

When asked if you were in favor of fracking and why, you stated:

campgottagopee wrote

I say yes.
Have a couple friends who frack...they make serious bank...they've been doing it long enough with no issues
Fracking would save SOOOOOOO many farms in our area......we need this kind of money around here

Sounds to me like you're saying we should frack because farmers such as your 82-yr-old friend "need" serious cash.

Adk Jeff wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Never said it was an argument for fracking. I said fracking would save this farm along with many, MANY, other farms in our area.

When asked if you were in favor of fracking and why, you stated:

campgottagopee wrote

I say yes.
Have a couple friends who frack...they make serious bank...they've been doing it long enough with no issues
Fracking would save SOOOOOOO many farms in our area......we need this kind of money around here

Sounds to me like you're saying we should frack because farmers such as your 82-yr-old friend "need" serious cash.

Correct. I see my statement more as a first hand example as to why I would like to see regualted fracking in NYS, and not an "argument" of support. Arguing fracking is wayyyyy over my head. The only thing I know for sure about fracking is the people around it have $$$$$$

ScottyJack wrote

Snowballs wrote

Well said Jeff. My thoughts exactly. It can wait. Tech will improve. People are already working on ways to do it without toxic chemicals.

Encasing steel pipe with concrete will most definitely fail eventually and then provide a path for the toxics and ground water to mix.

everyday the sun puts out enough energy to fuel the entire planet ten times over, so why not solar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with solar and wind is what do you do when it's night or not windy.  Every electron in the power grid has to used with mins that it's created depending on transmission times and distances.  Large scale electrical energy storage does not exist.  Batteries only can store small amounts of energy and are very inefficient.  Battery mfr is also not environmentally friendly and takes lots of energy.

Coach Z wrote

The problem with solar and wind is what do you do when it's night or not windy.  Every electron in the power grid has to used with mins that it's created depending on transmission times and distances.  Large scale electrical energy storage does not exist.  Batteries only can store small amounts of energy and are very inefficient.  Battery mfr is also not environmentally friendly and takes lots of energy.

Correct. For renewables to work you need energy storage. Gilboa is a massive pump storage project, that is the type of thing we will need to make it work - and that takes a lot of land and the right geography. However if we are charging a lot of electric cars - we have a big distributed battery. Up until the last month I have no been a big believer in EVs.

However, I drove to Utica from 1000 islands today, saw a massive windfarm project just NW of Lowville, NY on 12, must have been over 100 turbines. Was quite a sight. While driving and listening to CPR, I learned that Texas now has days where they get 33%  of their electricity from wind. All of this began to make me rethink my stance on electric cars.

I think the face of energy is changing. Maybe we can turn things around. I will need to reconsider my long held beliefs.

Coach Z wrote

ScottyJack wrote

Snowballs wrote

Well said Jeff. My thoughts exactly. It can wait. Tech will improve. People are already working on ways to do it without toxic chemicals.

Encasing steel pipe with concrete will most definitely fail eventually and then provide a path for the toxics and ground water to mix.

everyday the sun puts out enough energy to fuel the entire planet ten times over, so why not solar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The problem with solar and wind is what do you do when it's night or not windy.  Every electron in the power grid has to used with mins that it's created depending on transmission times and distances.  Large scale electrical energy storage does not exist.  Batteries only can store small amounts of energy and are very inefficient.  Battery mfr is also not environmentally friendly and takes lots of energy.

I have friends off the grid that manage just fine..
I'm headed in that direction as well.. You just need to simplify your life...

I got a bud with a solar installation on his roof.  He doesn't store anything - just sends it back into the grid. His meter runs backwards all day long and he gets a check from the power company 8 or ten months a year. (Cost a bundle but he got a sweet deal with some incentives and is sending his 2 sons to college with thousands in positive cash flow.)

Also what is up with those panels on telephone poles. I assumed those were just dropping juice into the grid too.

I'd like to see the govt give a $1B prize to the university or company that can make solar or some form of clean energy work.  IMO funding research to develop true energy independence should be considered a matter of national security and part of the defense budget. Even 1% of that total would spur massive innovation in the alternative technologies.

Harvey wrote

I got a bud with a solar installation on his roof.  He doesn't store anything - just sends it back into the grid. His meter runs backwards all day long and he gets a check from the power company 8 or ten months a year. (Cost a bundle but he got a sweet deal with some incentives and is sending his 2 sons to college with thousands in positive cash flow, but that is beside the point.)

Also what is up with those panels on telephone poles. I assumed those were just dropping juice into the grid too.

I'd like to see the govt give a $1B prize to the university or company that can make solar or some form of clean energy work.  Research to fund energy independence should part of the national defense budget. Even 1% would be huge.

That works in states like Mass, but I do not think NYS requires utilities to buy back the power or at least buy it back at market rates. I also have a friend who put solar panels on his roof, he took the deal from a solar panel shiester, he took out a big loan and with a nice down payment, he was supposed to see some positive cash flow, so far it's only produced 1/2 of what they said it would. Luckily he is in Mass where this is supposed to work, if he was in NY he would be really screwed.

My bud was a very special situation.

First he worked for DEP so he knew about the incentives.  He paid $20,000 for a $75,000 system getting $55k in grants from the state.

Plus they had a program in NJ where the utilities had to buy the juice from you at %150 of market rate for 3 years and it gradually declines to 100%.  

And his roof faces the right direction and is not blocked by trees.

One year he was getting some big quarterly checks.

He told me May is always the top month for revenue. Long days but not too hot which reduces efficiency. He also told me that when the pollen comes down on the panels production goes down until the next rain. His screen saver on his computer is a dynamic graph of the juice he's either using or producing.  You can see it dip when a cloud covers the sun.

Coach Z wrote

The problem with solar and wind is what do you do when it's night or not windy.

Burn fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Natural gas as much as you can.

Also like to see incentives for making nuclear safe and scaleable.  Fision/fusion? I forget, or never knew.

Harvey wrote

Coach Z wrote

The problem with solar and wind is what do you do when it's night or not windy.

Burn fossil fuels for the foreseeable future. Natural gas as much as you can.

Also like to see incentives for making nuclear safe and scaleable.  Fision/fusion? I forget, or never knew.

Or cut down on energy consumption at night..  
Use the daylight to charge u devices you need at night.  Use a small amount of juice for things like lights...
We have a pellet stove and fireplace - haven't run the heat since we moved in..

This isn't rocket science if you choose to live like this..  YOu just need to make some adjustments..
Of course this won't work for an oversize McMansion....  But those are becoming things of the past now anyway...

dmc_hunter wrote

oversize McMansion....  But those are becoming things of the past now anyway...

Agree. Both of our places combined are under 1400 sq ft.

Some of the places around here where only 2 people live are insane.

Our energy bill in the mtns in minimal. Most of is IS actually minimums - the amount you pay when you use no energy.

dmc_hunter wrote

Or cut down on energy consumption at night..  
Use the daylight to charge u devices you need at night.  Use a small amount of juice for things like lights...
We have a pellet stove and fireplace - haven't run the heat since we moved in..

This isn't rocket science if you choose to live like this..  YOu just need to make some adjustments..
Of course this won't work for an oversize McMansion....  But those are becoming things of the past now anyway...

Yea - agree that those big houses are ridiculous. But Industry uses twice as much energy as residential and transportation is a real hog. We throw away 60% of the energy we consume and power generation (conversion to electricity) and transportation (conversion to motion) are the worst offenders.

There a ton of companies doing the research on whats "next".  Most of the of the oil companies are doing it as well.  They don't really care what the energy is that they sell to you... they just want to sell it to you.  The pump/hydro project can help.  It will take a bit of everything to do it right.  

Footer wrote

 .  It will take a bit of everything to do it right.

Exactly..  It's never just ONE thing as we are lead to believe..
It can be many things to replace fossil fuel..

Geothermal seems like the best for future use. Yes, you need to use electric for the pump, but its minimal in comparison and I know someone pumping mid to upper 50 degree water year round in the Taconic mountains of NYS.  Then he only needs to add in 10 degrees of heat in winter and it keeps him cool in summer as well.  He invested in the system but he's hoping it will keep his energy costs low when he retires to that house.

Our school system installed Geothermal - freaking disaster. System maintenance costs are high and the heat/cool produced is low quality. Others I know who have installed smaller systems in homes and offices have not been impressed. It just isn't there yet.

PeeTex wrote

Our school system installed Geothermal - freaking disaster. System maintenance costs are high and the heat/cool produced is low quality. Others I know who have installed smaller systems in homes and offices have not been impressed. It just isn't there yet.

Geothermal kicks ass for Iceland - where they have a lot of geothermal activity. I think a big part of all of these discussions needs to take into context where the place is and what resources they have. Solar might never be the best option in the northeast with our long (hopefully) winters and frequent precipitation, but it sure is windy here. We also have the coast which could potentially be harnessed for tidal energy.

Of course, just because we have shale doesn't mean we have to get at it right now either.

ml242 wrote

PeeTex wrote

Our school system installed Geothermal - freaking disaster. System maintenance costs are high and the heat/cool produced is low quality. Others I know who have installed smaller systems in homes and offices have not been impressed. It just isn't there yet.

Geothermal kicks ass for Iceland - where they have a lot of geothermal activity. I think a big part of all of these discussions needs to take into context where the place is and what resources they have. Solar might never be the best option in the northeast with our long (hopefully) winters and frequent precipitation, but it sure is windy here. We also have the coast which could potentially be harnessed for tidal energy.

Of course, just because we have shale doesn't mean we have to get at it right now either.

Yea, we should burn liberal democrats, we seem to have an infinite supply and they seem like a renewable resource.