ACR lands the Great White Shark

Coach Z wrote

You see any better projects in the North Country?.

That may be exactly why the North Country doesn't get $500 million from the Gov.  Remember, only 2 out of 7 regions get the half bil, and it's a competition among the regions.

The Gov is a political animal.   He is going to make sure to spread the goodies around all over the state.  Not much else up here so the photo op with Norman alone will assure some bucks coming to Tupper.

Adk Jeff wrote

That may be exactly why the North Country doesn't get $500 million from the Gov.  Remember, only 2 out of 7 regions get the half bil, and it's a competition among the regions.

Jeff or anyone ... can you post a link or fill in the details on this competition?  I hadn't heard about it.

Harvey wrote

Jeff or anyone ... can you post a link or fill in the details on this competition?  I hadn't heard about it.

It's been very well publicizied upstate:
Upstate Revitalization Initiative
Essex and Hamilton Counties are part of the North Country region, which extends to the Canadian border.  Warren and Saratoga Counties are part of the Capital Region.
Also I mis-spoke earlier: it's 3 out of 7 upstate regions, not 2 out of 7, that stand to be awarded $500 million each, spread over 5 years.

Coach Z wrote

...the photo op with Norman alone will assure some bucks coming to Tupper.

Given the recent photo opportunities the North Country has presented, I'd say any goodwill the Gov had towards the North Country has been pretty well squandered.

The Gov has lots of splaying to do to the residents of the prison region.  Sprinkling some bucks a around is an age old way to try make people forget bad juju that went down.

The governor owes nothing to residents of the prison region.  It was residents of the prison region - the 2 arrested employees and 12 suspended administrators and officers - who were responsible for the escape in the first place.  We'll see how many more get named by the FBI and the Inspector General.  The incarceration of convicted felons is a major industry in the North Country.  You think the governor is going to reward incompetence?

Coach, you seem to feel that the North Country "deserves" one of $500 million URI grants more than the other 6 regions.  Do you have some insight into what's going to be included in the North Country's Revitalization Plan that is due to the Assessment Team on October 5, or is it just that you feel the North Country is somehow entitled to a grant?  Given the political leanings you expressed in that other (Teabagger) thread, I'm surprised to be hearing this notion of government entitlement from you.

I would agree the Gov owes nothing in the realm of this $500M prize going to the prison area.   That said, there is perception and then reality.    Perception is the Gov and State caused North Country stress and they need to be "made whole".   Remember, everyone is a victim today.      Reality is coach is right, $ makes all or most problems go away, fast.    

If the North Country is anything like most other suburbs with major cities, one may suggest that the Gov gets no or very little vote support, maybe not enough to measure, in the North Country.     Where I live, our Dem Gov's punish surrounding counties as much as they can---"don't vote for me, suffer my wrath".    Perception of the Gov will be all things for all people, but in reality, votes are the only thing that today's Gov care about.    My 2c.  

Reality:   The cash that flowed, and I mean FLOWED into the NC was already sufficient to pay them back.  1000 extra troopers at say $200/day for 14 days= $2.8 million boost to the region.     I would also venture to say the $200 is a fraction of what was really spent.     Maybe someone can suggest what a hotel room was going for up there, supply/demand.    Local services, such as electricians, meeting rooms,  extra reporters and their rooms, hotel taxes....etc, etc.    

Prisons are a boom to the area.......everyone knows this.    How?  The wife who helped them escapees  is married to a guy who also works in the prison.  I would bet there are generations of families tied to that prison.  It may be 75% of the cash flow in the area.    Trickling down, from the workers to the  groceries, hardware stores, services and local government needed to support that employee base... etc.    

I feel bad for the kids who have to go to school longer because their schools were closed, or those that missed camps.   But the area benefits by the prison and must accept what comes of living with a prison in your zip code.   Of course the locals all knew, and likely joked over beer, how flawed prison management (their neighbors) were.  

Trying to determine the number of employees, not just guards, at the prison seems impossible.  Likely hidden as no one really wants to know.   Just as hidden are the expenditures for prisons.   There are in budget items and out of budget items.   An in budget item is salary.   Out of budget are all the taxes in that check, including SS, Healthcare, pensions, etc.   Typical government.   Businesses must know the "real" cost of a worker, but the very men/women who try to tell employers what minimum wages or fair wages should be, don't either know, or care.....different budgets, Only they can do that.    


Per this study in 2010, the average NY State Prisoner cost $60,000.   Other reports say 2/3 of all prison budgets are wages.    The other 1/3 is likely food/maintenance etc.....also spent in the community.     The $60k is said to be conservative due to hidden budgets that this study was not even able to see.    Note:  This number includes NYC prisons, the highest in the country, likely the world.    So given the number is a low estimate, the higher number for NYC likely sets the number as good.  

From what I have seen, 2700 prisoners are held in Danmorra.    X  $60,000 =  $162 Million, most of which is likely spent locally.    

Aside:   Three studies I read hinted that most prisons have a guard to prisoner ratio of 1:2.      Again, that is guards, not other prison workers.       Likely why for profit prisons popped up.      39 Billion estimated spend per year.  Only includes 40/50 States who reported.    NOT included is Federal prisons....  

Found an article which listed top 10 paid guards in NY.   List started at 140k, grew to over 170k.     All due to OT.   No corruption in this system where average pay is listed at 50k.   Again, other expenses like taxes are not listed, so the real cost of OT is not known.    


I am all about locking up criminals, but this makes you think.

We have to do better....


http://www.vera.org/sites/default/files/resources/downloads/the-price-of-prisons-40-fact-sheets-updated-072012.pdf



MAYBE THE GUARDS/WARDENS (not in jail soon) WILL BE BUYING TUPPER PROPERTIES?  

Correction:  I assumed rural Clinton Co would lean conservative like Warren.   Clinton and the two adjacent counties went Cuomo, 55%+    Expect some State money to flow.   I predict a bill from the county for police OT, services, etc.     Maybe 5 Million?   Officials can find costs very quickly if someone else is paying, just think about all that wear/tear on the roads.   Heck the APA may get in on the money game, just think about all the baby trees that were crushed by State Police boots.        

In Baltimore after the riots, the city (responsible party) sent the Fed a bill for over $20 M.     Rumor has it will grow to $50M in expenses. Not that the Fed was responsible,us citizens just agree to pay 40% of "Disasters", natural or otherwise.      


http://www.politico.com/2014-election/results/map/governor/new-york/#.VZW5KDZOURs



Three blue states up North.   They should have well written proposals for that $500M.

I:)skiing wrote

Perception is the Gov and State caused North Country stress and they need to be "made whole".

You've got it exactly backwards.

I:)skiing wrote

Reality:   The cash that flowed, and I mean FLOWED into the NC was already sufficient to pay them back.  1000 extra troopers at say $200/day for 14 days= $2.8 million boost to the region.

No need to go through the math here ^^.  The generally accepted figure is that the search cost $1 million per day.  The search went on for 3 weeks, so $20 mil approximately, much of which trickled down through the North Country region.

I:)skiing wrote

If the North Country is anything like most other suburbs with major cities

Well, I've never heard anybody refer to the North Country as "suburbs."  

Getting this thread back on track...  The bottom line is that Dannemora will end up having zero impact on the ultimate decision to award the URI grants, just as any "photo opportunities" with Greg Norman will have zero impact on the URI award decision.  Personally I hope the North Country is awarded one of the grants, I'm sure the competition will be fierce.  And if the North Country is awarded one of the grants it remains to be seen if the ACR project would even qualify for some of the spending.  And if the viability of the ACR is dependent on Government grants, well that just goes to show that the project has been a smoke-and-mirrors game all along.

Adk Jeff wrote

I:)skiing wrote

Perception is the Gov and State caused North Country stress and they need to be "made whole".

You've got it exactly backwards.

I am not close enough to North Country to know or get a feel for the true perception.   I was going off of what Coach Z perceived the thoughts were.   But in all honesty, perception is just that....not right or wrong.    

I agree  with the reality that the State and Gov took ownership of this break out, then spent as noted $1M a day to solve the problem.     Also agree that no addtl funds need to be paid, but probably will.    Soon as the county and town accountants sharpen their pencils.    


On thread---I agree with ADK Jeff that any development that relies on such $ is doomed.  However I also question that grants like this are impartial or unknown to the general public, towns, councils etc.....while being fully vetted with those "special" friends of the Governor, Parties etc.    I do believe in the whisper game played by our government.   Insider trading.   The people that do this have no thought of who they are hurting (town of Tupper in this case) nor conscience.   Find a pot of money, set up a scheme to get some.  

In the 90s, down around Galveston, Tx, I recall seeing 100s of framed up condos---rotting.   All part of the first saving and trust scheme of the 80s.   Roads, curb/gutter---set up the infrastructure, get your loans/money and then roll out, filing bankruptcy.    

Yeah I do it is sitting in front of everyone's face. All the Olympic facilities need to be revamped if you want to see the engine of the north country continue for another 40 years. Not only would they keep the business they are systematically losing to other regions but we could start to have net gains. The cross country ski center, ski jumps, speed skating rink all need updated to host world cup events. It just makes sense.

The prison are a big economic boost to the North Country.  Many of my neighbors and dads of kids my son plays sports with are COs.  It's a tough but decent paying job but not one I would want.  Certainly some CO are going to take a hit for this whole thing but it's the management level that really failed here at making sure the standards and procedures were in place and running right.

As a resident you don't think much about the prisons until this sort of thing happens.  Throwing around some cash by the Gov will smooth his image which took a hit with this out.

As I said before I'd prefer that the state return all this infrastructure money to the tax payers.  Since the Gov is not going to do that and wants to play Santa Claus with our money we may as well see some benefit in the Daks as opposed to Long Island or wherever.  Ultimately I think he will brake his own rules for giving the money and sprinkle a bit just about everywhere to garner more votes.

I'd love to see orda score some of it but I don't know if a state agency qualifys under the criteria and if they do have they applied for it?

When we (low level) tax payers think of $500M, we believe it to be a massive amount of money.     Especially if spent all in one place...AKA Tupper or ORDA.      If I had my way, I would give to ORDA for Olympic revamps as noted.    

As I read it $100M/yr is given on each venture.    The way this government spends money, no one will ever see any of it.    All projects will be evaluated (costing millions) then up bid by contractors, etc...till its gone.   Frittered away with nothing to show except photo ops, now and again.    

Consider this:   The horrible shooting in Charleston SC.   The Whitehouse expedited $29M  for possible expenses including counseling for school children. How much will be left in the account as not necessary?      I really did not believe it, so I checked with Snopes.   True Story.    The $29M is true, the accompanying lie was that the money was going directly to the victim families.  Two weeks into the story, no one can get an accounting of the money.  I suspect no one ever will.   Rather its likely each small town around the area billed out OT for the town/county or drew up estimates for fencing or road repairs allegedly caused by security details.  Sadly, I expect the church also plans to bill Uncle Sam significantly more than average for holding funerals and completing repairs.   That said, I am sure there are legit expenses for hosting the President and his staffers.   Would anybody in their right mind question a bill received from the church after this occurred?   A news trap waiting to be sprung.     When the government has money, people will find a way to spend it.  Likely on friends who will contribute a piece of that action back as a campaign donation.    Regan had it wrong...its trickle down, then around and around.    

I predict Coach will be right....it will be sprinkled on some high level general project ubiquitous enough that no one can ever see a $500M measurable result,(revamp of Olympic venues) but rather several low cost picture ops with 50% of the money being lost to friends along the way.   Maybe ORDA can get some cash for solar panels at all resorts?   Here is an idea that will bring people to the North Country....WEB CAMS.     Gore GM should start writing the proposal now or maybe he had inside info all along that his cash was coming.       Tupper will get $2M to upgrade its sewer system or widen some roads to address all the traffic coming in on President's day to ski.  Each town will an advertising/public affairs person paid for by NYS.  Then be burdened with the taxes, salary, pension of that person when the NYS funds dry up.  

My money is on a cell company-----"we need lots of new towers and HS wifi. North Country folk will be the new silicon valley."   Every mom and pop not working for the prison will create a start up. Lots of places to hide money there.    PLEASE no wind farms, the likes of which ruined the PA Appalachains.  

Surprise me Gov'ner.          

There's an idea a wind turbine on every mt top in the Daks.  Scotty would be for that right he loves his green power no matter how unpractical or how many birds it kills ... Oh maybe not.

Coach Z wrote

There's an idea a wind turbine on every mt top in the Daks.  Scotty would be for that right he loves his green power no matter how unpractical or how many birds it kills ... Oh maybe not.

There is absolutely no such idea. Why are you lying?

I was joking.  Chillax

Coach Z wrote

I was joking.  Chillax

Ahhh, sorry.

Although I feel like conservative humor is tough for me to get sometimes. I think it's because I feel like environmentalists are good at heart and making fun of them is kind of a dick thing to do. Obviously, you have the right to take the piss out of anyone (especially when people go too far), but I never really found hippy punching to be very funny.

That's why, to bring it back to this thread, I disagree with groups like Protect the Adirondacks, but I wouldn't disparage them personally of make jokes that ascribed vague nefarious plots to them.

Why exactly is it ok to make fun of us that watch Fox News yet liberals have such thin skins?

Wind farms to me are a huge contradiction for the greens.  Green energy but it kills birds and no one wants them in thier backyard.  They are beyond worthless to me.  If it's not windy no power which means they have to be backed up by conventional power plants.  Hot summer days when Electric demand is its highest tend to be not windy.  Solar makes more sense especially in the SW U.S. not sure of the economics up here year round though.