ACR lands the Great White Shark

The mis/inaccurate info in the Bloomberg article is astounding, doesn't anyone check anything before printing?
The Golf course "is scheduled to open in 2018"??? I guess I didn't realize it was closed when I played up there last week.

Construction on the resorts base lodge, restaurant, marina and ski mountain will begin this year??? Are they kidding, I guess they've really put a lot more BS in the  Kool Aide mixture.

An exclusive gated community will begin development later this year?? Wow.

Right now they don't have a single permit from any of the necessary agencies so they can't start anything yet. And if they plan on doing work at the golf course they will most likely need permits from many of the same agencies. I'll bet Greg has no clue about how cumbersome the process can be.  

He also said something like, "This had been a place that had been sitting idle for many decades?? And that it needs an injection of government stimulus and some rebranding?  

"The project has approvals for about 650 homes, most of which would be located around the existing Big Tupper ski area and Golf course"??? Not according to anything previously put forth by the developers.

Need hip boots to get through this article.

endoftheline wrote

Need hip boots to get through this article.

You called it

O Yeah, forgot, they haven't even purchased the property yet, just a small overlooked detail.

http://shark.com/gwse/news/norman-partner-adirondack-club.php

Let see if the APA filets a shark

Why the heck are you guys so against this?  Getting that ski area running and providing jobs to Tupper all are great things.

What makes the golf course special is that it is a Donald Ross designed course.  There are very few of them that are not exclusive private country clubs.  Norman is going to refurbish it which is a year or two process.  They probably will close one 9 at a time to work on it.  Since it's town owned and run I'd expect the deal will be locals will get a great rate after its back open and its will become a high end facility with prices to match.  Over in VT there are many courses charging $150+ per round though that would be high for the Daks tourists would be willing to pay it.  I don't think a renovation would even need APA approval.  I'm sure Norman would run a really nice golf operation.

Combine a private marina with a top notch golf experience and skiing you have a really nice combo.

Hey, I'm not against it at all, I think it's great. It's far enough from me where it won't change my life and will help out Tupper. I have long felt that this was the kind of thing they needed, but I also think the obstacles are huge.
Don't confuse skepticism with lack of support

My thing is that all the time, money and energy they're spending on all this other stuff (marina, golf course, etc.) is less time, money and energy spent on the ski area (which is mostly what I care about).

If it turns into a huge success story and they're able to turn the ski area into something awesome, then sweet! But I'm extremely skeptical about that happening.

Outsider looking in. I don't think anyone is against this, but most may feel like it's nothing but smoke and mirrors. We had the same feeling about Hope Lake Lodge here in CNY. Seriously how the hell can Virgil NY support a $50 million hotel ........turns out it couldn't and we're lucky as hell Greek Peak is still here. I get the feeling that Tupper Lake locals may have the same gut feeling about this project.

I'm against taxpayer money being used to fund boondoggle projects that benefit the well off, which is what this sounds like. Who, in a very poor part of the country, and, I'll add, a country at the moment dramatically splitting into the rich and poor with nobody left in the middle (I just read this morning that 47% of Americans could not come up with 400 dollars for an emergency. And that's coming from a Federal Reserve report) could afford 150 dollar golf? And you're going to put this course hours from any population center in a place that has a very short season? Really? Hell, I live close to Westechester airport, where you can jump on a JetBlue for not too much money and be in Florida or even Myrtle Beach and play expensive golf to your little heart's content, almost year round. That's your problem. Air travel. Killed much of the ADK tourist industry decades ago, and I fail to see the reversal in the future.
Golf, as I said, is a sport in heavy contraction. Less and less people are finding the money, or, more importantly, the time to play it. Courses are continuing to close everywhere. So, out of desperation, the taxpayer is going to fund an exclusive course in the middle of nowhere that hardly any NY resident can afford to play? Back of the line. We have more pressing problems.

I am more than skeptical.  I am flat-out against this project for a number of reasons:
 - The APA approval process was flawed (ex-parte communications, incomplete environmental studies, etc.)
 - I am against utilization of public funds (PILOT, governor's regional economic grants, whatever) to enhance the profit of private developers.
 - I think the developers' manipulation of the economically desperate local citizens in order to gain their support for the project is shameful.

Benny, Coach is a conservative. I think this might be a better way to put it:

Coach, you're a free market, small government type of guy (I think). If private money is there for this, sure! I'm all for it. If the market will support this business by itself, then free market capitalism demands that we see this project through. And those damn regulators should stay out of the way!

But it seems like the evil government is thinking about sinking a lot of money into this, and that's not really where we should be putting our limited resources. Remember Solyndra?!?!? If the government has extra money, they should give it back to the people!

(Note, Solyndra was actually just an outlier in a hugely successful government program to encourage alternative energy businesses, but since people think that it was a huge boondoggle, I'll just go with it for the argument).

New development this morning.  Actually not new, it's essentially the same story reported in the Bloomberg article last week.  From North Country Public Radio:

It's official:  Golf legend is backing Tupper Lake's Adirondack Club and Resort

In an interview with North Country Public Radio, Chris Dillavou, senior vice president with Great White Shark Enterprises... told Adirondack Bureau Chief Brian Mann the company will play a significant role in the development going forward. "Greg's alignment with this project is something that we've seen help spur residential sales and interest in projects because of his credibility," he said. "From an investor standpoint, we have a lot of private equity partners that we deal with on a regular basis...with our involvement and with some additional information we can provide, I think it's something they will look to consider."

It's still not clear exactly what kind of investment Norman / GWSE will make, but you would think the partnership would eliminate the need to finance infrastructure (including ski area improvements) from sales.  The partnership should also eliminate the need for public money (PILOT or whatever).  

Regarding public money for ACR / Big Tupper... if the State of New York had say $20 million available to invest, where would the greatest public good be achieved:

A) Investing in infrastructure (roads, water, sewer, electric) to support ACR plus redevelopment of Big Tupper (new lift or two, snowmaking, lodge)

 - or -

B) Investing at Gore to double snowmaking capacity, construct a gondola linking the Ski Bowl -> Burnt Ridge -> main mountain gondola, a cabriolet lift linking downtown North Creek to the Ski Bowl, summit lodge building with toilets and renovation of saddle lodge.

i am an avid golfer who spends most of his vacation time golfing. i am also a dying breed. pouring big money into that course would be a mistake. to much competition in that area. i can play the sagamore or go to lake placid and play those gems and enjoy the village while i am there.

Coach Z wrote

Why the heck are you guys so against this?  Getting that ski area running and providing jobs to Tupper all are great things.

What makes the golf course special is that it is a Donald Ross designed course.  There are very few of them that are not exclusive private country clubs.  Norman is going to refurbish it which is a year or two process.  They probably will close one 9 at a time to work on it.  Since it's town owned and run I'd expect the deal will be locals will get a great rate after its back open and its will become a high end facility with prices to match.  Over in VT there are many courses charging $150+ per round though that would be high for the Daks tourists would be willing to pay it.  I don't think a renovation would even need APA approval.  I'm sure Norman would run a really nice golf operation.

Combine a private marina with a top notch golf experience and skiing you have a really nice combo.

I would guess most people commenting here want success for Tupper Lake.

The facts are the developers have no money and are unable borrow private money. The only potential money will come from NYS. The location is bad. The ski area is marginal at best and has huge, NYS funded competitors in the area. Making the ski area actually function will cost big bucks and is way down on the to do list. The lake and the golf course have not been able to drive more tourism to Tupper Lake in the past, why would that change now?

Adk Jeff wrote

New development this morning.  Actually not new, it's essentially the same story reported in the Bloomberg article last week.  From North Country Public Radio:

It's official:  Golf legend is backing Tupper Lake's Adirondack Club and Resort

In an interview with North Country Public Radio, Chris Dillavou, senior vice president with Great White Shark Enterprises... told Adirondack Bureau Chief Brian Mann the company will play a significant role in the development going forward. "Greg's alignment with this project is something that we've seen help spur residential sales and interest in projects because of his credibility," he said. "From an investor standpoint, we have a lot of private equity partners that we deal with on a regular basis...with our involvement and with some additional information we can provide, I think it's something they will look to consider."

It's still not clear exactly what kind of investment Norman / GWSE will make, but you would think the partnership would eliminate the need to finance infrastructure (including ski area improvements) from sales.  The partnership should also eliminate the need for public money (PILOT or whatever).

I would love to know who brought Norman into this. I'm skeptical Lawson made the call, and I'm even more skeptical Norman made the first move. Look at that picture. There is not much love between the two, for sure. I'm thinking that Norman is doing somebody a favor, and, I'm guessing that someone is Cuomo, for either a chit called in by the guvna or for a future payback somewhere in the state, or maybe even national office. As I said, he's just showing up to put a shine on this turd, and maybe bait real money. He certainly hasn't announced any real commitment beyond a photo op.

Adk Jeff wrote

I am more than skeptical.  I am flat-out against this project for a number of reasons:
 - The APA approval process was flawed (ex-parte communications, incomplete environmental studies, etc.)
 - I am against utilization of public funds (PILOT, governor's regional economic grants, whatever) to enhance the profit of private developers.
 - I think the developers' manipulation of the economically desperate local citizens in order to gain their support for the project is shameful.

BIG DITTO Jeff.  Pretty ironic, this gang is looking to get taxpayer funds to help them make even more profit(potentially), when the reality is that they DON'T PAY THEIR OWN TAXES, be it Fed income Tax or Local property and School taxes. Franklin county had them on a program to repay old taxes overdue on a payment plan which they defaulted on quickly with no consequences. Your average taxpayer wouldn't get that same consideration trust me.

Franklin county had to borrow hundreds of thousands of $$$$s to cover the local municipalitys' shortfall which increases every taxpayers burden in the county.

I'm not totally against this project but if is as good as the developers claim then the financial risks and rewards should be born totally by the principals involved, NO taxpayers funds should be used to prop this up, Period!

Benny Profane wrote

Pretty smart to be pushing golf in a place that has an effective playing season of maybe five months. Wearing insect repellent for a lot of it.
Maybe he doesn't have money problems. Maybe he has an IQ problem.

today's NPR story in no way said Norman's company was investing

My take is that Orda and thus NYS bankrupted Tupper around 2000 when it invested in WF and Gore  with the gondis and at the same time lowered season pass prices.  Nys owes it to Tupper which has since become a goast town in the winter to do something to bring it back.  To me this looks like Tuppers best shot.  I was rooting for them but didn't think it could be successful before they got Norman involved.  Norman is like the pied piper who will draw in rich great camp owners and investors alike.  Any big project today plays for some state deal.

As Matt said I am a conservative but the state money that is going to invested is coming from wall street and since the state has already taken it I'd prefer they spend it up here compared to Long Island or somewhere else.  If they were going to have to raise all our taxes for this it might be a different story but a tourism tax hike in Franklin and Essex county I would support.  If the money is coming from the Govs steal from the rich bank fund and he is using it to play favorites the Daks should get thier share and this looks like a good place for it.