Greek Peak Conditions (2016 - 2017)

I see. Yeah kinda sucks I can feel your pain.  I would be breathing a sigh of relief that you are going to get a dime back.  You made and investment and you are only breaking even.  That's a heck of a lot better than it could have been.  If it were trump that made that deal you would have gotten zero back.  

Yes, the Cascade outcome could have certainly been worse; albeit the Canadian and Utah parties who bid on GP stated that they would honor the Cascade program and some of the other existing programs as they were originally designed.

Enough said about that.

On a different note, has anyone heard of any on-mountain improvements planned for this summer? I'm assuming they'll continue working on the upper Odyssey snowmaking, as well as the mid-mountain pump house. I'm not sure if they are adhering to their five year plan, or if the difficult past winter will slow things down. I'm hoping for the best.

Marcski wrote

You made a lot of sense up to your last 2 sentences.  It depends on the size and breadth of the ski area.  Even here, 650,000 represents about 9% of the purchase price for the entire ski area for the current owners.

Marc, what I failed to mention is that the $650k would not have been reimbursed to all club members at the same time, as memberships were purchased at different times. In addition, the agreement stated that GP had the right to reimburse members their $10k at any time after the first 3 years. As it is, it's costing the owners $65k annually to fund all of the memberships.

campgottagopee wrote

Good grief. I've lost money in the stock market. Breaking even thru a BK is winning!!!! I don't feel sorry for anyone who believed Al.

Camp, I hear ya. I had two companies I held stock in go under. Do you remember Continental Airlines?

Anyway, I know a few of the Cascade families who really couldn't afford the $10k, and probably shouldn't have purchased the memberships, but they wanted to help ensure that the business prospers year round via the Adventure Center addition.  We can say in hindsight that we all should have known better, but the reality is that we did not see the bankruptcy coming, otherwise I would surmise that the majority of us would have taken a nice vacation rather than handing The money over to GP.

Hard to see how $650k is a drop in the bucket for a ski area the size of GP.  Do they make that much in a great year? How much in an average year? How much did they lose this year?

The only investments with potential for significant positive return (greater than T bills) have risk.  As you know from your Continental experience if a company goes under you could lose it all.  That's why more timid investors use mutual funds instead of individual stocks, less risk, less upside and less downside.

You were essentially buying stock in a weather dependent business and the risk was realized.  From following your exploits it seems like you are doing ok, maybe let it go. The money is gone the only thing that remains is your regret.  And in reality there is no guarantee that other owners would have given you a better deal.  You said yourself GP is a business not a charity.  If you were the owner and just came off the worst season in quite a while, would you give away 650k for good will?  Is there more to this story that I am missing?

All good points, Harvey. Well taken.

The owners just left a bad taste in my mouth from the start. I'll get over it, but it began with the Cascades Club, then the marketing of the High Speed Express Quad (which is a fixed quad), and then the implementation of a 4% resort fee on everything, which has increased to 6% this year. Now they run an ad asking for support due to a challenging winter by purchasing a gift card. If individuals purchase a gift card and the place goes under, folks on this forum will say that they should have known better.

In terms of the $650k, I think people are so focused on the ski area that they are losing sight in the value of Hope Lake Lodge. Even with the number of fractional shares already sold, that facility is worth far more than the ski area in its current state, and far more than the $7M purchase price. HLL has so much potential that could contribute to the bottom line of the entire organization. I know the hotel business extremely well, whereas I am by no means an expert of the ski industry. What I do know about the ski business is that it's risky, and requires considerable capital. That capital is not generated by lift ticket sales alone. As I mentioned some time ago, we actually looked at the entire facility when it went to auction, but our heads spun at the notion of what it would take to bring the ski area up to date. We were actually less concerned about HLL, and viewed it as an attractive facility. Remember, just about everything at the ski area needs to be updated.

Rj1972 wrote

 We can say in hindsight that we all should have known better, but the reality is that we did not see the bankruptcy coming, otherwise I would surmise that the majority of us would have taken a nice vacation rather than handing The money over to GP.

No hindsight here, we must roll with a different crew. Again, with a $50 million dollar hotel in Virgil how the hell did you think it would make it. Hell a $50 million dollar anything wouldn't make it in Virgil. I'm no hotel expert or ski area expert but I knew that boat wasn't gonna hold water from the get go! I remember sitting around the bar with my buds and we would all just shake our heads. Geezus, they couldn't even pay the taxes on what they already had. How in the fuck were they gonna pay taxes on HLL and Adventure Center. Oh that's right, they didn't!

You jab at Marc and John every chance you get. I'll say this ---- I give those guys major props for doing what they did for you Cascade Club Members. I say that because if it were reversed, meaning Al bought the place out of BK, you can bet your sweet ass he would've closed it down for effin good! If you don't know that to be true you are grossly kidding yourself.

People here are focused on the ski area because we are skiers.  Personally I don't care much about hotels and would trade free 30 nights at 5 star hotel for one powder day or even packed powder that I paid full price.

I actually do know something about hotel marketing and luxury properties in a remote locations usually need (in addition to everything else) some kind of stunning location like the Grand on Mackinac Island or the Sagamore on Lake George to succeed. Even those two properties are break even in average years, they are labors of love.  I'm sure Virgil is very nice but probably not that kind of location. So the ski area and the waterpark are the substitute for that location, and skiing is not reliable.

You say you "looked at it" does that mean you were interested in buying it?  Besides the 650k refund how would you have run things differently?

Harvey wrote

You say you "looked at it" does that mean you were interested in buying it?  

Yes, but the ski area scared the hell out of us. We know hotels, but not ski areas. We had ski area consultants along who gave us staggering estimates of what infrastructure improvements were necessary, and what they would cost. We also looked at what it would take to reposition and market the resort after the bankruptcy.

We felt that given the estimated auction price of the entire resort, the hotel would be a good value--particularly since less than half the timeshare units were sold. The hotel has never been marketed or positioned properly, and we felt the downside of the hotel was minimal. Remember, HLL was originally an AAA four diamond rated property, and there is a significant amount of undeveloped land surrounding it. Yes, building a $50M hotel in Virgil makes little sense, but the estimated auction price was a small fraction of that amount.

So with the mountain needing a staggering amount of infrastructure, you'd give back 650k?

Seems like you understand what Marc and John are up against, and sounds like it is your interest for the mountain to succeed. Why not root for them?

In all sincerity we never discussed altering the Cascade Club program, which is what we understood the other interested parties also conveyed. We did discuss accelerating the $10K repayment, but beyond that, never gave it much more thought, as that was the least of our concerns. The resort was not going to be an emotional purchase, as it needed to make financial sense.  To us, it did not.

I most certainly want to see GP succeed. As I've said many times, I believe it's the finest mountain in the region. I am just not convinced the existing owners have what it takes to move the place forward.

I'll take Mark & John any day over the second highest bidders, "Mr. Dirt" company from Towanda, PA.

Big D, it also came down to the business plan John and Marc presented to the judge. My understanding is that their plan was impressive to the court.

There were two other interested parties that crossed our paths, but not the PA group. We never heard of that outfit until after the fact.  As I've said, based on our estimates, the place just did not make financial sense to us, as it was NOT our goal to simply continue operating the business as usual.

Rj1972 wrote

 

I most certainly want to see GP succeed. As I've said many times, I believe it's the finest mountain in the region. I am just not convinced the existing owners have what it takes to move the place forward.

Time will certainly tell. I've said it before and I'll say it again. It took 50 years to run the BEST hill in CNY right into the dirt. Let's give Marc and John two things. #1 our support, not because it's "Marc and John", but because they're the 2 dudes that own the place now. #2 Let's say half the time it took to ruin the place, so about 22ish more years. I'm extremely impressed with what they've done so far, and I'm curious what they have up their sleeves for the future.

I'm excited about the future of Greek Peak. Marc and John have passion for skiing, that will carry thru the entire Greek Peak experience.

campgottagopee wrote

I'm curious what they have up their sleeves for the future.

It better include snow making on every trail so they can be fully open by Christmas.

LOL

No kidding --- that's given, duh

Very cool happenings at Greek Peak this summer!

http://www.dec.ny.gov/education/68.html

campgottagopee wrote

 


RJ, all I know is their marketing dept has made HUGE improvements as of late with staffing. Given enough money (i have no idea what that amount is) they will get the word out. I'd imagine choosing the right avenue to get the word out is key.

So much for that

campgottagopee wrote

campgottagopee wrote

 


RJ, all I know is their marketing dept has made HUGE improvements as of late with staffing. Given enough money (i have no idea what that amount is) they will get the word out. I'd imagine choosing the right avenue to get the word out is key.

So much for that

you mean, Travis has left?

yep

times are tuff this summer I guess. That's twice now they've messed with him, doubtful there will be a 3rd time. Sad, very sad, he's a talented dude. He will certainly be fine, it's GP that will suffer.