Greek Peak Conditions (2018 - 2019)

Hey Campy, why dont you have paid parking at your estate and shuttle them in by sled!

Can park at my place but nobody rides bitch on my sled

Thrill rides behind the sled for extra money!

Greek had chairs 1a, 2, 3, and 4 running Thursday. I skied the glades and bike trails underneath Ch 2 in the afternoon -- after teaching the kids from a field trip in the morning. The snow was fantastic. And as long as you kept away from Alpha and the carpets the place was empty. The field trip of about 100 kids were loving some of the best conditions of the year.

Everything on the front side was open. I found myself trying some of the bike trials for the first time. I now understand why they labeled these for skiing. The ones that are open for skiing are not that steep and reminded me of all the illegal trails I used to shoot down as a kid.

I hope the warm weather coming next week doesn't wipe out the good snow.  

And I think I am going down there this afternoon (Saturday). It will be busy I expect.

I skied yesterday and today, both beautiful days with lovely snow! GP did a great job managing the Spartan race, as well as keeping most of the mountain open for skiers.  I got to chair 5 at 9 am, and was ushered into a parking spot by two attendants. I spent most of the morning on Illiad, including my first crash and burn in a few years. While the Spartans were racing, the announcer kept saying how happy they were at GP, and to pick up their trash. "Spartans don't litter!" I left around 11:30. The chair 5 lot was less than half full.

Its all about the $$.  How many cars fit in the main parking lot at $30?  Most of the other Spartan venues only charge $6.  Then they fill the lodge which is usually empty unless there is a groupon.  Then they take advantage of the wealthy who participate in these events and nickle and dime them.

It definitely was a fantastic day of skiing with plenty of sun and fresh corduroy. No lines to speak of, and a great atmosphere with the Spartan race.

Chair 2 did go down late morning, and they never got it up and running again. Some were complaining about lifts being down this year more so than usual, but it was too nice of a day to get caught up in what we already know about the place.

Hopefully the weather doesn’t play too much havoc with the place tomorrow.

I also went to Greek yesterday, but by the time I parked, took the shuttle, realized I lost my phone somewhere, and went back to the car to find my phone under the car, it was nearly 2:00 before I hit the lift. I stayed away from the crowd and on lift 5 until about 4:30. Then I ate dinner in the Taverna cafeteria and went back out until 8:30. The place was a ghost town, and the skiing was fantastic.

I had not issues with the Spartan Race. As an employee I was allowed to park off Clute Rd near the lake, but shuttles were running all day. Skiers were parking for free at Chair 5, which was also serviced by shuttle. By the time I got there the employee lot was close to full, and the race was winding down. Every skier I talked to said that the skiing was great, and the race had not been a hassle this year. A few property owners and skier hotel guests asked me a few questions about the race, but they seemed to be ignoring the race for the most part. Maybe after three years Greek is managing it better.

If the scuttlebutt around the "pro room" is to be believed, Greek is making lots of cash from the Spartans. That $30 from each car in the (full) "VIP" lots goes to Greek, as does a substantial facility/host fee. And from what I have seen in (lack of) crowds this year, I think they need it. I talked to a lift mechanic last night as I was leaving. YES, lift 2 was down, this time because of some sort of electrical issue. It was spinning about 5:00, but they were only testing it, no one was loading.

Everyone knows the lifts have been a total hassle this year, and there are plans to do much more than just replace lift 3. But aside from the quad and the major renovation of Chair 2 some 20 years ago, there have been only plans in place for years. There is so, so, so much that needs to be done on the ski side. And much of it the customer does not see:
-  Number one for me: The lifts. They all problematic. Even Visions has had problems with the loading area. The others all need major overhaul. The second youngest (Chair 5) was built in the mid 1970s. Yeah. Think About That!  Chairs 1, 3 and 4 were installed about 1970. Chair 2 was installed in 1963, and rebuilt from parts from another ski area about 20 years ago.
- Snow-making infrastructure: lots has been done, but more remains. Nobody sees all the hidden water and air pipes that still need to be replaced. This is a big need that they've been addressing the last few summers, but still we has a big pipe burst earlier this year.
- Lights: Continue to replace old lights with LEDs. Reduce the power bill and brighten up the area. Make getting Zeus fully lighted again a priority!  Lots of wires to re-run all over the mountain. Greek still has some lights hanging from the trees!
- Buildings: With some exceptions they are a mess. Trax, the rental and ski repair centers were all built or remodeled recently, but other areas, especially in the "back of the house" are a mess. The children's center has a nonfunctional, useless kitchen that does nothing but take up space. It needs to be removed and the kids' room needs a light remodel. Employee changing areas, the instructor room, and bathrooms upstairs above the rental center are disaster areas. The carpet is trashed, the men's toilet wobbles on its base, even the water in the bathroom sink is difficult to turn off. Then there are the lockers themselves. Ugh. They are the used leftovers that customers trashed 50 years ago. The Taverna cafeteria is dated, ugly, and messy. The Corinthian meeting room has a nonfunctional bar and is otherwise a dump.
- Marketing Department: The place is a ghost town. Aside from the Spartan race the place is basically empty 24/7. I've not heard or seen a Greek Peak ad or ski report on the local news -- or on any radio station in the Syracuse market. Back in the day Greek had busloads of kids coming from Auburn and Syracuse area middle and high schools. The place was THE place to ski. The place needs to do whatever it takes to grow the market. You MUST get the kids, or the sport and resort is going to die.

After years of neglect there is a ton of work to be done. I just hope the new owners have deep enough pockets to make the needed improvements without taking on debt.

I've also wondered if Greek has a customer affinity club or group like some other areas have. Some smaller areas have had these kind of things for years, but I have heard nothing at Greek.

Doug, great points and information!

When we brought in a team of consultants during the bankruptcy and subsequent auction, quite a bit of what you noted were reasons for us passing on the project.

The current owners do not appear to have deep pockets, which as you suggested, is really what is needed. To bring the place up to date by simply investing annual profits will be challenging at best. The resort needs an infusion of significant cash followed by strong operations and marketing departments. A million dollars here and there just won’t do it.

On a completely different note, we skied today, and it was a ghost town. A tree on the top of the mountain between Visions and Chair one came down, as the result of the strong winds. The mountain crew attacked it with chainsaws, and was able to clear the trail.

Chair two was not running by the time we left at noon.

Rj1972 wrote

 A million dollars here and there just won’t do it.

How many people live closer to Greek than any other mountain?

Greek is sandwiched between Binghamton (45k pop), Syracuse (143K pop), and Ithaca (30K pop). The population of Cortland is around 19K, but demographics differ from the major metropolitan markets that used to run ski buses past Mountain Creek, the Poconos, etc. to the state of the art facilities at G.P. (back in the day). Quite a few buses used to come from Philly (1.6M pop), NJ, and NY. While skier visits are down nationwide, the smaller areas like G.P. were hit hard. If you recall, Ski Magazine used to rank G.P.'s ski school program as one of the best in the country, which attracted thousands of weekend warriors. In fact, Preston Smith (founder of Killington) wanted to purchase G.P.  

When ski areas closer to home began upgrading their infrastructure, skiers stopped traveling the distance to G.P. With that said, when you look at Hope Lake Lodge guests and Arcadia Village owners, most are from NJ, PA, and NY. However, the weekend warriors tend to be locals.

No other ski area in the region (Song, Lab, Togg, or Caz) match the terrain of G.P., which is beneficial to some, but not all.

Rj1972 wrote

Chair two was not running by the time we left at noon.

I skied from 11 to 3 - Chair 2 did not run during that time either.

You didn't need to hire a team of experts to tell you that. Anyone who has skied GP over the past 20 years knows that. They also know that borrowing $50 million from some fly by night bank in TN to build a hotel wouldn't work either.
Marc and John are smart for taking their time dumping cash into the place.

I agree When I moved to Washington area 35 years ago, my DC skier friends knew about Greek, and generally had good things to say. Compared to places within a 6 hour drive, Greek had better snow, more terrain, more (and more modern) lifts, bigger condos to stay in.  When I moved away a year and half ago, Greek was not on their radar.  There have been major upgrades to places in PA and WVA.  This is what I've seen in just two:

1. Ski Whitetail: Opened in the early 1990s. Located just over the border from Maryland in PA, 2 hours from DC. It has about the same vertical as Geek but has 6 modern lifts: 4 quads, (1 high speed detachable) and 2 doubles. It takes about 3 minutes to go to the top on the detachable. Doubles are only on beginner terrain. It has condos and townhouses like Greek, but they are basically on the slope and modern. They have a beautiful lodge, a modern children's area and a modern rental building. Snow-making is 100%. There is only one thing they DON'T have that Greek DOES: Alcohol. They are located in a dry county, so Whitetail has to focus on providing a better ski experience to survive.

2. Snowshoe/Silver Creek W VA. With a 4,800 summit this place gets 180 inches of snow each season. But it's hard to get to. In 1984 this was two separately owned places that were next door to each other. It had mostly runs of 600-700 vertical. It did have one 1500ft vertical run and a ton of undeveloped land. It had lot of potential, but it also had poorly maintained and unreliable lifts (that were only about 10-20 years old!). It was a 6+ hour horrorshow of two lane curves from DC. Night skiing was poorly lit and limited to a few trails. Accommodations were privately owned condos and hotel style rooms that varied widely in quality. Management seemed not to care about the skiing, it seemed focused on poorly planned and executed real estate development (sound familiar?)  What changed? WV built a 4 lane interstate quality road that shortened the drive to 4+ hours.  A merger of the two resorts and a bankruptcy brought big corporate ownership and tens of millions of dollars. Gone were the unreliable lifts, crappy hotel rooms and beastly condos. New were three high speed detachable lifts and development of that 1500 vertical for some of the nicest expert and intermediate terrain in the east. Night skiing is still limited to the old Silver Creek trails, but they are well lit. Snow-making was added.  

Both these places advertise heavily throughout Maryland and Virginia. The jointly owned Whitetail/Liberty/Roundtop "Take a Snowday" campaign slogan has been so heavily advertised on local radio that its kind of a local DC area joke.

So for DC skiers, Greek has been left behind in the 1980s.

I think that Greek could be like Snowshoe/Silver Creek in WVA. It doesn't have two runs of 1500 vertical feet, but it has lots of  undeveloped terrain and potential. But it needs big investment. First, please, please, please fix the lift situation. There is no excuse for having to evacuate chair 4 a few Saturdays ago. There is a lift issue every other time I go, and I go  3-5 times a week! The new fixed grip quad should have been a high speed detachable. It's not very reliable and it's still relatively "new". The moving walkway is hard to use, it jerks, and runs out of sync too often. It needs to be working each and every day. Otherwise Greek should sue the company that sold/built it. Replace Chair 2 with a High Speed Detachable that gets to the top in less than 5 minutes. Open all that terrain that runs under and around chair 2. Chair 4 needs to be made reliable. It has adequate capacity, but it needs a complete rebuild or replacement, preferably with a faster chair. Chair 5 feeds some beautiful terrain, but it is too slow by today's standards. Time for another high speed detachable. They need to modernize the base lodge(s). In its current condition, the Taverna cafeteria should be closed off to customers. It's a mess. As for the A-Frame: what does the customer get from the A-frame anymore?  I know the race club uses it, but could they be accommodated elsewhere???? Could the A-frame be taken down to open up more terrain for beginner and intermediates?  

Greek has made good progress in the last few years on snow-making. It has a nice hotel and good quality restaurant and food service. But it needs an investment of tens of millions of dollars in the ski side to be able to compete with the likes of what is now in WV and PA. At the very least, a major investment needs to be immediately made in the lifts. If the current owners don't want to, or can't, do this, then the place will continue to be a ghost town on the weekends.

I don't think it's a question of wanting to, or having the ability to, but rather the question of does it make sense. As in dollars and sense. If the place isn't flowing now how could you justify poring 10's of millions of dollars into the place. Each summer upgrades are made. I think the "build it and they will come" mentality has been proven not to be a good business model. That damn hotel was 50 million friggin dollars --- in Virgil --- we all knew it wouldn't work. It's one big boat anchor.

Too bad we weren't owned by the state where they could just toss 50 million into the ring and not have anyone be responsible for a ROI.

For me it always goes back to this. It took 50 years to run the place into the ground so what do you say we give Marc and John 20 or so years to bring it back up to the beloved we all enjoy.

campgottagopee wrote

You didn't need to hire a team of experts to tell you that.

I know, but I was being optimistic.

campgottagopee wrote

Marc and John are smart for taking their time dumping cash into the place.

They are in over their heads, made an emotional purchase, and haven’t been seen on the slopes this season according to friends who ski GP exclusively.

Rj1972 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

You didn't need to hire a team of experts to tell you that.

I know, but I was being optimistic.

campgottagopee wrote

Marc and John are smart for taking their time dumping cash into the place.

They are in over their heads, made an emotional purchase, and haven’t been seen on the slopes this season according to friends who ski GP exclusively.

LOL
There have been improvements made Every. Single. Year. If that's in "over their heads" I'll take it.
It's true they're passionate about our beloved. I'll take that too.
I've seen them both there. Again, I'll take it.

Obviously if the owners don't have lots of cash to invest they will have do it little by little. I also don't like the idea of them taking on a ton of debt either. I hope the skiers are patient.The locals might be. I doubt that skiers coming up from the NYC/NJ, Philadelphia, DC and Baltimore metro areas will be. They have to drive past areas that are better equipped to get to Greek. My first priority would be be making sure the lifts run. No more Saturday afternoon lift evacuations. Then making as much snow as possible. Meanwhile they have to compete with marketing like this (from the Snowshoe Web site): Don't miss the Ridiculous Pass Sale! Lock in unlimited skiing/riding for the rest of this season and the ENTIRE 2019/20 season for just $259. Sale ends Thursday, March 14. See http://links.alterramountaincompany.mkt8796.com/servlet/MailView?ms=MjY2NTc2OQS2&r=MTA4ODQ3MjE5MjY1S0&j=NzQwNTMzNTc4S0&mt=1&rt=0

I have to agree with Camp that it makes sense to do improvements incrementally. It's easy to find fault, and I'm not one to pull punches on criticizing things at Greek that i don't like, but they can't go willy-nilly on capital spending. They should have a five year plan, hopefully one that includes benefits to skiers (both the locals and the out of towners) and has a positive ROI.

From my perspective it was generally a very good season at Greek. Every time I skied the conditions were good. They recovered well from rain / warm events. They opened trails so you didn't have to poach them.

Here's what I'd like to see improved:

-- Lift availability of course. Lift 2 appears to have serious issues and should probably be outright replaced.

-- Snowmaking - it still seems like they struggle with that. They have new guns so hopefully that will continue to improve as they fix/replace whatever weak links they have in the system.

-- Parking - the parking is a total cluster, to the point where people parked in the walking path near the creek on several occasions.

-- Loading the quad. Wow. They still cant' get this right after all this time. Still see chair after chair go up empty because the lifties are apparently mute and unable to tell customers to put their knee against the gates, and the hand-written stickers they put on the gates have faded.

-- Provide some kind of incentive / benefit to repeat season pass holders. Maybe a discount off the full pass price - even a token amount of $25. Or a food deal or something - a free beer. We dont' even get the chicken wing deal on Monday night (although the one time I had wings there they came hacked to pieces like the chef had a cleaver and was angry that night).

Right now I'm debating what I'm going to do for a season pass next year. I've had a GP pass for about 25 years with a hiatus where I went to Song/Lab for a couple years because it was so much cheaper for a family of four. When they went back to discounts for multiple passes at GP we went back. But now my kids are in college, so there's not point in getting passes for them. I'm on my own and may forego any local pass in favor of one of the multi-mountain products out there. There's not anything new pushing me to drop the coin on another year at GP. And as they pull in more people from out of town (which they need to do) the place loses some local flavor and appeal - sort of a catch-22 there since they need the out of town crowd to fill the lodge and spend money on food.