Next Upgrades at NY Ski Areas

Harvey wrote

I realize my POV will seem selfish. I also get that BR would be more useful to many if it was a traditional pod. But as it is now BR is extremely unique in NY.  Gore is huge and should IMO offer a wide variety of experiences, not a huge volume of the same. Don't widen Lower Steilhang, don't go beyond Abenaki for trails on BR, think very carefully about how you use the 3.6 miles of trail that remain under the 40 mile limit.  IMO there's a good chance that snoloco will get what he wants and live to regret it.

I don't have many days at Gore under my belt, but we were taken around by some locals and I think I've said this before but it's worth repeating, Lower Steilhang was our favorite trail at Gore when we visited. It will be a shame when they ruin/widen it.

Marcski... who did you ski with? We should do it too.

Lower Steilhang was an icy death trap when I skied it.  Won't miss the old Steilhang one bit if they widen it.  

Still, I'd rather ORDA leave one death trap for you guys to enjoy and let the $$$ be spent on snowmaking for the new trail.  Steilhang is just another trail off the High Peaks Chair.  Abenaki will be a vital connector trail.  It must have snowmaking and be groomed daily as do all other trails serving a similar role.  

Steilhang isn't really an essential trail, so I don't really care as much what they do with it.  I'd like to see them widen, grade, and groom it so the icy death trap is no more, but there are way more important things that need to be done, like making sure Abenaki has snowmaking and is consistently open with the rest of the Ski Bowl the first season.  

As for trails on BR.  The more the better.  Sagamore cannot be the only option if there is racing on Echo.  There needs to be at least 2 more trails on it.  Low elevation terrain is no good for glades.  Never been in Cirque and only been in Barkeater once, because they were never open when I was there.

There's a lot of grey area between Okemo style homogenized trails that all ski exactly the same, and selfishness.  Burnt Ridge will still be unique to NY, even with double the trails on it.  A section with a high speed lift needs to have lots of trails, not just 2.  The 3.6 miles are very well used cutting 2 trails in addition to Abenaki there.  There's so much acreage that I don't think any glades would need to be clearcut either.

Harvey wrote

Marcski... who did you ski with? We should do it too.

Yes, I'd like you to show me around Gore one day.  

We (2 Platty regs and myself) were there last year and met up with these 3 amazing tele skiers. 2 male one female. I think one was a doc, another a PT or something...they all lived within an hour of Gore. We followed them all over on terrific off map terrain thst had nice soft snow. If it weren't for them our day would have been mediocre at best, the trails were all firm and skied off except for Steilhang...it had the softest snow of any on-map terrain we found the entire day.

Is the Abenaki glade -> trail conversion a definite go for this summer?  I hadn't seen anything "official" on that.

Adk Jeff wrote

Is the Abenaki glade -> trail conversion a definite go for this summer?  I hadn't seen anything "official" on that.

They were going to cut the trail this year, do snowmaking next, but when Mike saw snoloco's threats they cancelled the project.

Marcski... there are others well more qualified to show you the goods (Adk Jeff for one), but it would still be fun. I may not be the guy, but I probably know him.



Re Lower Steilhang, it's always an icy deathtrap, Marc must have confused the trails names the day he was there.

I don't see how you could add two trails on BR that return to the quad without losing Cirque or Barkeater.

Agree on the "icy death trap" re. Lower Steilhang comment!  Maybe they were on Lower Sleighride.

Geb... I was trying to be funneh. Doh!

I wonder if this reference in the Governor's grant announcement references Abenaki:

Town of Johnsburg, Warren County: North Creek Ski Bowl Park Trails, Kiosks, and Signs; $37,121 to place kiosks at trailheads, develop trailhead signage, install strategically placed trail map boards and build an additional one kilometer of trails to connect with an existing trail network at this town-owned ski/snowboarding park connected to the state-owned Gore Mountain Ski Center. Benches and picnic tables will be installed on the trails and at the picnic area, and brochures and interactive mapping will be developed.

You say "cut the trail now so the project is started, then it has to be finished".  However this isn't always the case.  Remember when Otten ran Killington into the ground.  He was going to build the interconnect in summer of 1997 and 1998, then open in early 1999, but it was shelved after the work in 1997 and hasn't been finished since.  The guys who run it now have no plans for finishing it and are instead using Killington as a cash cow for western investment just like ASC.

Don't cut it if you can't cover it.  Those are the words to live by in the ski industry.  Rather have no trail than one that was never open.  They ran out of money and couldn't give 46er snowmaking right away.  Tell me if there are plans to have it on that and Moxham now.  I don't hear any.  They marketed this new terrain so hard, but it was closed 80% of the time.  There's 3.6 miles left in the limit.  Use those trails for Burnt Ridge.  They wouldn't have to clearcut Barkeater or Cirque to do it, and even if they did, there's still a ton of room for even more glades.  

Get a HSQ for the north side as well.  I don't normally have a problem with fixed grip lifts of that length, but put a bunch of families and kids on one and it won't run full speed and will stop all the time.  Get a HSQ and run it at 900 fpm instead of 1,100fpm like the AE2.  It costs less, will basically never stop or slow, and will get you up the north side in about 4.5 minutes.  That's over twice as fast as the slow quad there now.

Harvey wrote

Geb... I was trying to be funneh. Doh!

I was being serious.  Guess I just haven't timed my runs right on Lower Steilhang! :D

Next year!  

Just re-upped yesterday.  Makes a lot of sense to convert one of those glades off Sagamore into a more open run so more people can get over to the ski bowl.  That pipeline traverse is onerous!

Harv,

What's the source for Gore being only 3.6 miles from the constitutional limit? Last I heard (a while ago), they had a much bigger cushion.

I got it from Mike two years ago in his office he showed me the map of the plan for the remaining three and a half miles I think that was before the new trail was put in from the top of the fridge over to the north side.

Harvey wrote

I wonder if this reference in the Governor's grant announcement references Abenaki:

Town of Johnsburg, Warren County: North Creek Ski Bowl Park Trails, Kiosks, and Signs; $37,121 to place kiosks at trailheads, develop trailhead signage, install strategically placed trail map boards and build an additional one kilometer of trails to connect with an existing trail network at this town-owned ski/snowboarding park connected to the state-owned Gore Mountain Ski Center. Benches and picnic tables will be installed on the trails and at the picnic area, and brochures and interactive mapping will be developed.

No, that grant is strictly for improvements to the mountain biking trails at the Ski Bowl.  The Post-Star ran an article with details about that grant the other day:
State grants to aid Bolton parking, Johnsburg trails

Harvey wrote

The racing issue isn't going away; only Echo and Twister can really be used for this vitally important activity.

I realize my POV will seem selfish. I also get that BR would be more useful to many if it was a traditional pod. But as it is now BR is extremely unique in NY.  Gore is huge and should IMO offer a wide variety of experiences, not a huge volume of the same. Don't widen Lower Steilhang, don't go beyond Abenaki for trails on BR, think very carefully about how you use the 3.6 miles of trail that remain under the 40 mile limit.  IMO there's a good chance that snoloco will get what he wants and live to regret it.

You had me until "here's a good chance that snoloco will get what he wants and live to regret it". Snoloco is incapable of regret, as he is always right.

I agree that the mountain needs to maintain it's unique character and variety. I think Lower Steilhang skied fantastically all season. Please leave it as is!

If I ever live to regret anything, It'll be in the take it back thread.  I don't think it will change though.  I guess I agree with Yukon Cornelius for once.

It doesn't matter if it's unique to NY or not.  BR needs twice the trails it has now.  If Echo is closed for racing, Sagamore will be a hornet's nest as all 2000 pph from the lift have to take it.  Add Abenaki and two additional trails and watch lines at the gondola go away.  IMO, expansions should benefit the majority (groomed intermediate runs).  Not the minority (glades).  Not saying there can't be any glades, but groomed trails should take priority because more people use them.

snoloco wrote

If I ever live to regret anything, It'll be in the take it back thread.  I don't think it will change though.  I guess I agree with Yukon Cornelius for once.

It doesn't matter if it's unique to NY or not.  BR needs twice the trails it has now.  If Echo is closed for racing, Sagamore will be a hornet's nest as all 2000 pph from the lift have to take it.  Add Abenaki and two additional trails and watch lines at the gondola go away.  IMO, expansions should benefit the majority (groomed intermediate runs).  Not the minority (glades).  Not saying there can't be any glades, but groomed trails should take priority because more people use them.

It's definitely frustrating when Echo is closed for weeks (or weeks of ski days) straight for racing. More so, when racing is training on one small part of a closed Sagamore.  

snoloco wrote

  IMO, expansions should benefit the majority (groomed intermediate runs).  

You could add in grading Rumor and adopt the MORE BORE slogan for marketing

The Rumor can already be groomed.  I might grade out some of the rocks and ledges to make it easier to cover though.  

It's not grooming alone that makes trails repetitive and boring.  I skied groomers all day at Stowe and Killington and was never bored.  However the trails are unique and have turns as well as variations in pitch.  What is boring is when all the runs ski exactly the same like Okemo.  They are all about the same pitch and many have the same turns.

Take the North Side at Gore for example.  Those trails are all unique, but some are groomed.  I'd make snow and groom all of them, but not widen or straighten them.  The lift would also be upgraded to high speed.

For the Dark Side, I'd replace the lift and make sure everything has snowmaking.  I wouldn't widen Steilhang because there are much better ways to spend money than that.

snoloco wrote

The Rumor can already be groomed.  I might grade out some of the rocks and ledges to make it easier to cover though.  

No.