Next Upgrades at NY Ski Areas

A short survey at the ticket window.

Would you like us to remove the gondola towers?
-No. OK thank you. $75 please
-Yes. Ok thank you. $125 please

snoloco wrote

To be totally honest, I like Stratton's business model more than Gore's.  However, I never said that Gore should do everything that Stratton has done.  There's no reason that snowmaking at the Ski Bowl, and the lifts can't be upgraded without turning Gore into Stratton.  I also think that there is no excuse for leaving old lift parts to rot when they should be removed.  Killington has done this and it drives me crazy.  I am not for making every mountain ski the same.  I am all for keeping all infrastructure and technology up to date, and paying some attention to how the place looks.

I think most people understand a NY ski area at 1000 feet needs snowmaking.  And the lifts are being upgraded... three new HS lifts in 15 years... who else in the east has done that?  Probably not many.

And with the most recent lift all the old parts were removed. It's standard procedure now. I don't really mind the gondi towers either CMR.  The only one I even notice is the one at the top. It reminds me of something from the first starwars movie. But in my mind is was a screw up not to remove those towers when the straightbrook chair was installed.  You had the chopper on property, the extra cost would be minimal. But that was a different time.

It's other things you've said that go beyond snowmaking and lift maintenance.

EVERY lift doesn't have to be high speed.  The north is mostly out of the wind and a great place to take your little kids. Gentle terrain that experts will avoid because of the lift.

You don't like Lower Stielhang because it really can't be fully groomed.  Gore has over 100 trails - we can't have ONE Lower Steilhang? It's one of the most unique runs in the east.  Even though you never ski it it seems you'd be happier if it wasn't there.

Look obviously I'm not going to change your mind. As of yet Gore is not Stratton. Some day (hopefully after I'm gone) Gore will be exactly like Stratton is today.  They'll change the rules and put slopeside condos on Ward Hill and in the parking lot.

By then Stratton will probably be virtual reality skiing, completely insulated and you'll get the last laugh.  "Ha... the mountain Harv loved so much is gone! I win."

Or maybe you'll have little kids of your own and you'll want to enjoy something simple with them. Maybe you'll realize the only time you get to talk to them is on the lift, and you'll wish it took a little longer to get to the top.

Who knows? It could happen.

To be totally honest, I kinda wish most ski areas would shut down all of the lifts and rent climbing skins for $5 a day and groom about half as much as they do.

Part of the reason for my obsession with high speed lifts is the fact that I ski and ride alone the majority of the time.  I am usually riding solo, and it gets boring to sit on a long lift such as the MC Sojourn Lift for 12 minutes with nothing to do.  Except for the days that my dad and I are skiing together, or if I am with friends from school, I am riding the lift solo, or with complete strangers.  That gets really old and I really just want to be at the top ASAP.

Also, when I was Neve's age and I first skied Gore, I remember the North Quad being slow as hell and my parents being frustrated with how slow it is too.  If they ran it a little faster, maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but I can't stand that thing now, and I couldn't stand it back then.  It takes 10-12 minutes every ride, runs less than 400fpm at full speed, and stops constantly because the people who ski that section cannot load or unload it.  I'm much more likely to lap the AE2, Burnt Ridge, or the faster fixed grips on the summit or Topridge.  Every time I lap the North Quad, I think of the time I am wasting sitting on a cold bench 30 feet up in the air when I could ski another section and be off the lift way sooner.  I always end up thinking "Why am I wasting my time on this slow a$$ lift? I've only got till 4pm to ski."

I guess to each his own, but I want to ski and not spend hours and hours of my day sitting on slow old lifts that stop all the time.  I have already started skiing, but I am incomplete till Mountain Creek opens and I can go 4-5 times a week.  Maybe that's why these complaint sessions keep on coming.  I just need more sno or I will go loco, or maybe I already have.

snoloco wrote

Can't get the money to get things done?  Then raise the ticket and pass prices to bring in the extra money.  How hard could it be to hike pass prices by 100 or so dollars and ticket prices by 10 dollars or so.  The ORDA SKI3 pass costs 10 dollars less than a full adult pass at Hunter.  It costs only like $740 and that is way too little for something that gives you full access to 3 mountains like that.  Something like that should be going for at least $1,000 dollars, if not more.  It is also far less than Windham is charging, and a whole lot less than what SoVT is.  Those places have no trouble getting the prices they charge, so why can't WF and Gore charge that too so they can have money for improvements and not rely on the state giving it to them.  Have a big expansion/improvement that was announced and then the pass price is 100 dollars more and people complain?  Say that the price raise was necessary to pay for the expansion/improvement.  It is crazy to expect new lifts to be installed and new trails to be added without having to pay more for a pass or ticket.

Post of the year.

snoloco wrote

What about raising ticket and season pass prices to fund more improvements?  Gore charges considerably less than the southern Vermont mountains, and also way less than Whiteface.  There's no reason that Gore can't charge what Whiteface is charging for day tickets, and their passes should be more in line with what the southern Vermont mountains charge.

This is the last thing the industry needs, if we are going to subsidize the state mountains they should be as affordable as possible for the adult citizens that pay taxes and want to take their girlfriends, and someday maybe even a family, skiing.

the cost of skiing is way too damn high.

Scene: Barreling up the North way in the Friday night traffic.

Sno: "Dad, why can't you get a private jet and avoid all this traffic and travel time, you know how much I hate sitting and waiting"

Sno Dad: Silent - gritting his teeth.

Sno: "Can we get a car with heated leather seats in the back, I'm tired of sitting in uncomfortable cold seats while you and Sno Mom sit up front"

Sno Dad: Makes low Grumbling noises

Sno: "And while were on the subject, I hope your getting that Sony 85" flat screen TV for my room like I asked for, I'm tired of straining my eyes and neck playing video games in the living room"

Sno Dad: Slams on the brakes, pulls quickly off the side of the road, throws open the car door and pulls the whinny brat out of the car, gives him a swift kick in the ass and says, "get a fucking job and pay your own way."

That's funny! (I understand your comment was made in gest)

Another member on this board made a similar comment a while back and was crucified for it.

I don't think Sno has ever had a hand (or foot) ever laid on him...

I know he is only 15 and hopefully he will eventually be thankful and appreciative for what he has instead of taking it for granted and whining about what he doesn't.

There was a time many of us stuck up for loco because we liked the thought of a teen posting about skiing.  Now we think teens are very annoying and there is a reason they shouldn't interact with adults.

You soooo need to get a girlfriend

snoloco wrote

Part of the reason for my obsession with high speed lifts is the fact that I ski and ride alone the majority of the time.  I am usually riding solo, and it gets boring to sit on a long lift such as the MC Sojourn Lift for 12 minutes with nothing to do.  Except for the days that my dad and I are skiing together, or if I am with friends from school, I am riding the lift solo, or with complete strangers.  That gets really old and I really just want to be at the top ASAP.

snoloco wrote

evantful wrote

I hope you go to college for Ski management, proceed to work at a resort (preferably one of the 3 NY state run) and live in your own personal hell when the realities of what the current management deals with is now yours and the things you want to get done, you can't.

Can't get the money to get things done?  Then raise the ticket and pass prices to bring in the extra money.  How hard could it be to hike pass prices by 100 or so dollars and ticket prices by 10 dollars or so.  The ORDA SKI3 pass costs 10 dollars less than a full adult pass at Hunter.  It costs only like $740 and that is way too little for something that gives you full access to 3 mountains like that.  Something like that should be going for at least $1,000 dollars, if not more.  It is also far less than Windham is charging, and a whole lot less than what SoVT is.  Those places have no trouble getting the prices they charge, so why can't WF and Gore charge that too so they can have money for improvements and not rely on the state giving it to them.  Have a big expansion/improvement that was announced and then the pass price is 100 dollars more and people complain?  Say that the price raise was necessary to pay for the expansion/improvement.  It is crazy to expect new lifts to be installed and new trails to be added without having to pay more for a pass or ticket.

What you don't understand is that orda is not a regular business.  Profits is other ski areas are pumped back into improvement projects.  Orda has to send all its proceeds to the state.  The legislature then the next year decides how much capital Orda can have for improvements.  You would raise prices and the state might spend that money on Long Island.

I have many times wondered when those Gondi towers are going to become a safety harzard and expect at some point they will need to come down.  Either that or the APA might force their removal.

The world isn't as simple as raising prices. Consider what the market will bear for said product. Comparing The NYState Owned to VT resorts is virtually impossible, what the key difference between them from a product standpoint, Sno?
-The major VT resorts are all inclusive, with major investment in hospitality Realestate.
It is a huge revenue driver for all of those resorts, and ultimately it attracts a much larger swath of consumers who want that type of product. Now compare that to Gore. The nearest large accommodations, are in the Warransburg/Lake George area, about 30-35minutes away.
Hunter has its proximity to NYC, and again they have the all inclusive accommodations.

Barring a change to the NYS Constitution, Gore will never have those products. Whiteface benefits from its heritage of the Olympics with its proximity to Lake Placid providing its 'base resort" area, with fairly world class accommodations. It can attract people from Montreal and the Albany Metro Areas. Thus it can demand a higher ticket price.

They can raise pass prices and ticket prices all they want, but if they become very close in price parity with the VT resorts, they lose one of their only competitive advantages in the eyes of Joe-Skier.

Turns out that none of the choppers used in the last 3 installations at Gore had the horsepower to raise a gondola tower. It was considered.

I wonder when Windham will upgrade their base to summit lifts.  The quad is almost always overcrowded and the 1mph triple just plain sucks.  When I ski there, I hardly ever use either one except early or late in the day.  These lifts seem very ripe for an upgrade especially since Hunter has already upgraded their main lift.  They would do very well to rip out the painfully long and slow triple and install a 6-pack in its place keeping the quad as a backup.  One issue might be trail capacity, but they have added trail capacity for the second year in a row which could be saying something.  Since Windham is an upscale, service oriented resort, I'm thinking they might make a new 6-pack a heated bubble lift if they do it to one up Hunter and compete with the places further north.  That route isn't that windy, so I don't think wind holds would be an issue most of the time.

I also wonder what would be done with the triple after it is removed.  It is from 1983, but was the main lift for just 10 years.  Once the quad was added, it has only run on some super busy weekends or when the quad breaks down.  I think opening up a new section between East and West Peak with it would be awesome.

Harvey wrote

Turns out that none of the choppers used in the last 3 installations at Gore had the horsepower to raise a gondola tower. It was considered.

Divide and conquer.

At least it was considered.

From what I know, these are the only things happening this summer in NY.

Gore:  Cut Abenaki glade into trail to connect Burnt Ridge to Ski Bowl.

Windham:  New trail in Wilderness Bowl between East and West Peak.  Don't know what it's called or if it is on the West or East Peak side yet.

Another thing:  The new Gore trail had better have snowmaking right off the bat.  I hate seeing all these new expansions trumped up and marketed like crazy during the offseason and how Gore will be a million times better with it.  Then the season comes around and the trails remain snowless or even worse, an entire section, cough, ski bowl, cough, sits there unused as a money drain instead of being a useful expansion.  Makes no economic sense to cut a trail and not be able to cover it.

If it does have snowmaking, which it had better have, it will mean that there is a 3rd usable route off Burnt Ridge and an easier way to the ski bowl meaning that it is used more and open consistently.  If there is no snowmaking, we can just keep playing the game we have for the past 5 years and waiting for nature to do Gore's work (provide snow) while trails are left to rot and lifts rattle uselessly in the wind.  Of course, we also get to hoof it around the Pipeline Traverse for another 5 years while we wait for snowmaking.  

ORDA: Please replace this glade with an icy groomer

I think it would be nice for them to cut another trail or two over at Burnt Ridge.  With only two trails just Sagamore and Echo over there, just not a lot of variety for the average skier, unless you ski the glades off Sagamore.  And if they do racing on Echo again next year that leaves only Sagamore.

The racing issue isn't going away; only Echo and Twister can really be used for this vitally important activity.

I realize my POV will seem selfish. I also get that BR would be more useful to many if it was a traditional pod. But as it is now BR is extremely unique in NY.  Gore is huge and should IMO offer a wide variety of experiences, not a huge volume of the same. Don't widen Lower Steilhang, don't go beyond Abenaki for trails on BR, think very carefully about how you use the 3.6 miles of trail that remain under the 40 mile limit.  IMO there's a good chance that snoloco will get what he wants and live to regret it.

Get rid of that stupid limit then.