Next Upgrades at NY Ski Areas

YUKON CORNELIUS wrote

snoloco wrote

The Rumor can already be groomed.  I might grade out some of the rocks and ledges to make it easier to cover though.  

No.

So you want it to require more snow to open which means more money spent on snowmaking there which either means greater ticket/pass prices or less snowmaking elsewhere.  Doesn't make sense to me.

snoloco wrote

  Doesn't make sense to me.

Get past the obsession with cushy chairlifts, grooming, making everything easier and your round trip lap times and you may

Hey Loco, I actually like a lot of your ideas. In a lot of ways you could be a great owner/GM of a ski area but you do miss a few aspects of marketing a ski area or creating a product that meets the needs of many and not just those that want what you like.

I do understand where you are coming from though, the people that spend the most money are the terminally intermediate sliding weekend warriors and the ones on a week long family vacation. I agree with having snowmaking on key trails/pods for getting things open by Thanksgiving and Christmas, these are the key weeks for a successful ski season. This demographic group will always exist and is key for making $ at any ski resort.

Another thing I agree with you on is having detachable hs lifts, I hate sitting on long slow chairs or standing in a lift line. Maybe I'm jaded and have had way too many days in my boots but I would much rather do something else than be at a crowded ski area. This is just me though and I'm sure there are plenty of people in the tri-state area that don't know any different. On another hand though I love surface lifts. The simplicity and ability to run no matter what kind of winds are closing down chairlifts is pretty cool to me. Of course they do take a little more work than sitting on your butt and for the urban dwellers that can't handle a little hike or short walk across the parking lot they probably don't like them.

The part I think you are missing though is that there is a large group of sliders that like the challenge of mogul skiing, trees, ledges, and natural terrain filled with cool and funky features. Lapping groomers all day is really boring to a lot of us seasoned veterans, I basically can't spend a whole day of skiing groomers, it makes me very sleepy. I know kids your age and into the mid twenties have the whole world completely figured out but give it some time and you will find that your views and opinions will change over the next few years. You are in a cool spot and have a lot of very fun years ahead of you.

Now, ever since I have been lurking I have wanted to discuss with you what could be the ultimate spot on the east coast to create one of the most successful ski areas there. Because this thread has become mostly about Gore I will give my opinion that I think Gore could be the one. It's location being only 4 hours out of NYC/NJ and it's size should make it a contender. I also like how the ski runs drop right into a town, a town that sits right on a river. If I had unlimited funds and was developing Gore the connections between the Ski Bowl and the upper mountain would be an area of focus for me.

I have a few other ideas but I'll hold off for a reply. I told you guys/gals, I'm a total geek like that!

Lets say it now requires 5 feet of snow to cover The Rumor to make it skiable.  It is 125 feet wide on average and about 1200 feet long.  The total cubic feet of snow is 5x125x1200 which is 750,000.  That's a lot of snow to make it skiable and a lot of $$$.  Let's say The Rumor is graded and now it only requires 3 feet of snow to make it skiable.  Now the total cubic feet of snow needed to cover it is 450,000.  300,000 less cubic feet of snow are needed to cover it now.

These 300,000 cubic feet of snow that normally would be used to make The Rumor skiable so it could open can now be used elsewhere.  If snowmaking is added to 46er and it is graded so it takes 2.5 feet of snow to make it skiable, here's how much they need.  It is 3,500 feet long and 75 feet wide.  With these numbers it requires 656,250 cubic feet of snow to cover it.  Almost half of 46er could be covered with the extra snow no longer needed for The Rumor.  And that's with no help from nature at all.  That is a lot of money saved by reducing the amount of snow that The Rumor needs to be skiable.

Anyone who knows the formula for volume can figure out this simple math.  Then again, I doubt if skimore even knows any math.  Just how to flame people on the internet.  Who wouldn't want a ski area to be able to cover an additional trail for half the cost it normally would?

snoloco wrote

Lets say it now requires 5 feet of snow to cover The Rumor to make it skiable.  It is 125 feet wide on average and about 1200 feet long.  The total cubic feet of snow is 5x125x1200 which is 750,000.  That's a lot of snow to make it skiable and a lot of $$$.  Let's say The Rumor is graded and now it only requires 3 feet of snow to make it skiable.  Now the total cubic feet of snow needed to cover it is 450,000.  300,000 less cubic feet of snow are needed to cover it now.

These 300,000 cubic feet of snow that normally would be used to make The Rumor skiable so it could open can now be used elsewhere.  If snowmaking is added to 46er and it is graded so it takes 2.5 feet of snow to make it skiable, here's how much they need.  It is 3,500 feet long and 75 feet wide.  With these numbers it requires 656,250 cubic feet of snow to cover it.  Almost half of 46er could be covered with the extra snow no longer needed for The Rumor.  And that's with no help from nature at all.  That is a lot of money saved by reducing the amount of snow that The Rumor needs to be skiable.

Anyone who knows the formula for volume can figure out this simple math.  Then again, I doubt if skimore even knows any math.  Just how to flame people on the internet.  Who wouldn't want a ski area to be able to cover an additional trail for half the cost it normally would?

Figure in the low elevation of 46er and the high elevation of Rumor and the fact that one melts fast and one retains it.  Figure that into your equation and get back to me.

Someday you'll realize a homogeneous resort isn't so great.

and I'm good at math 2+2=4.......I think

Rumor is one of the things that makes Gore unique.  Take the difficulty of that run by grading it away and Gore's uniqueness and claim to fame are diminished. My 2 cents.

interesting points. i find rumor to also be a waste of resources. the trail is rarely any good. in fact the only time i have really enjoyed it was closing day this year. big soft bumps. i agree with raising arizona that pouring resources into the town and that area of the mountain has potential. how cool would it be to stay and party in town the catch some sort of trolley to the mountain.  nothing around here like that i know of is like that

Gore improvements are funded by NYS/ORDA and putting lifts on town land isn't likely to happen before things like the High Peaks Chair are updated.

Many years Rumor is blown last, or not at all, in deference to other terrain. And it's for precisely the reason snoloco pointed out. It takes more snow to cover steep, irregular terrain. Trails in order of steepness at Gore: Rumor, 46er, Lies.

More challenging terrain appeals to a certain kind of skier. Many families have one or more skiers who want a challenge and mountains that flatten or homogenize that terrain risk losing those families.  Gore is never going to beat Stratton or Okemo at their own game. Why not take the advantages you've got an maximize them?

Gore still has fantastic tree skiing. It might be easier to ski if you cut down all the trees, but it wouldn't be tree skiing.

A little OT (but not much)... be fun to see a snoloco TR from Hickory. Rocks everywhere, thin cover, minimalist base lodge, no seats on the lifts.

harv  i was just daydreaming about the improvements centered around the town. will never happen in my life time.  plus if the town grew like a classic ski town it may wreak you little slice of paradise.

You can't flatten The Rumor.  Just remove the ledges and rocks that make it take a crazy huge amount of snow to cover.  It'll ski exactly the same as it does now, it will just be open more because it makes more sense to cover it.

I say there are 3 lifts on the mountain that could all use an upgrade now.  They could all be done as part of the same project which would make it cheaper to do.

Upgrade the North Quad to high speed.  That would make the area more family friendly because of fewer lift stops and slows due to little kids.  It would also take more people away from the front side spreading out the crowds more.  To compensate for more people on the lift, blow snow on Powder Pass and North Star and groom everything daily to spread out the crowds.  Reuse the tower tubes from the fixed grip quad so less work is needed and therefor it is cheaper to do.

Using parts from the North Quad fitted to the AE1 towers, replace the Sunway Chair.  Add a load carpet to reduce stops.  This will reduce lines at the beginner area and result in a more enjoyable experience and more people returning.

Of course, replace the High Peaks chair with a new double that has 1,200 pph capacity instead of 800 and run it to where one can get to all the trails from it, but not have to skate to get back to the Dark Side.

I would also do lots of snowmaking improvements to allow all lifts to be open by December 26th every year.  Start a week before Thanksgiving with the AE2 and a couple trails and add from Thanksgiving on, one or two lifts every week.  Sample opening strategy using this past year's dates.

AE2 with Showcase and Sunway to Quicksilver:  11/15

As much of the Front Side as possible (Twister, Wild Air, Lower Sunway, Sleighride):  11/22

Gondola, Sunway, Topridge Triple, all Topridge runs, Ruby Run and Foxlair, beginner areas:  11/28

Straightbrook with Cloud to Headwaters, Hawkeye, and a couple others I'm forgetting:  12/7

North Side with Pete Gay and Sleeping Bear, Dark Side with Santanoni, Wood In, and Hullaballo:  12/13

Burnt Ridge with Echo, Cedars, Hedges, Sagamore, and all connecting trails:  12/20

Ski Bowl with Peaceful Valley, Village Slopes, Pipeline, Abenaki (it would be a trail), and Eagle's Nest:  12/26

During and after this expansion plan, open all the rest of the trails on all the sections.  Try to be 100% open by MLK Weekend.

When I first came to Gore, 11 yrs ago, I was impressed by the potential of the town.  Small, friendly feel.   Something needs to happen.    Attractive town brings skiers....BACK.     Gore does not seem interested in helping the town as much as the town tries (from my perspective) to use Gore to attract visitors.    

The railroad tailings project killed the biking/hiking trail to high peaks.   I think that was a silver bullet winner for town.  Rafting is good for business.   Mountain biking at Gore needs a real player in the game (like Mike  at White Face) ...maybe the town can help with insurance or co-payroll.    

The cliffs on Echo are so amazing to look at.    They are protected from winds (from what I have seen) unlike Ruby's face wall.     In Ouray, CO---Ice climbing capital, they took a water line, set drip pipes from it and basically built an ice wall for climbing.      That cliff is a good 80-100 feet. Instructor jobs, gear jobs, rentals, and yes...skiers/boarders too.   A perfect weekend.    Gore--  A true man-made ice wall   mecca on the East.  


OH yeah----Freaking Webcams.. Gore, Are you just being bull headed about this?   Can you be that stupid?  

Bypass mounted cams and your alleged frozen camera issue.....Every morning send up a drone or two.    


Death to those who talk about "flattening" Rumor's ledges.    I'm cool with removing some lose boulders that require snow coverage.  Blast nothing.  Leave big boulders where they are.    Double Black, means double black.  

Harvey wrote

A little OT (but not much)... be fun to see a snoloco TR from Hickory.

I can't wait to hear him bitch about Steamboat. TR due in 8 months.

snoloco wrote

Upgrade the North Quad to high speed.

I may have asked this before, but instead of a brand new HSQ is it possible to add carpet loading to the existing lift and crank up the rope speed by say 50% ?  I would think that would be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

I:)skiing wrote

Death to those who talk about "flattening" Rumor's ledges.    I'm cool with removing some lose boulders that require snow coverage.  Blast nothing.  Leave big boulders where they are.    Double Black, means double black.

Maybe someone could post a photo looking up Rumor from the bottom before any snowmaking has taken place.  I think you'll see plenty of stumps / boulders that could be removed to make snowmaking coverage easier and wouldn't change the character of the trail.  I know I've got photos showing that, but I'm on vaca  so someone else is gonna have to come up with the right photo for me.

snoloco wrote

You can't flatten The Rumor.  Just remove the ledges and rocks that make it take a crazy huge amount of snow to cover.  It'll ski exactly the same as it does now, it will just be open more because it makes more sense to cover it.

I think when you (hopefully someday) get good enough to ski off those ledges and have fun doing it, you will understand just how wrong you are. Those ledges and rocks help make Rumor what it is, a challenging Eastern ski trail. With optimal conditions where you can ski the entire headwall and rip it, Rumor is a ton of fun. If you want flat, boring groomers, stick to the lower mountain or stay south of the NJ/NY border and buy fancy lunches in the fancy lodge at that other craphole instead.

When (if?) that day comes, all his posts will be about putting the boulders back in

Spongeworthy wrote

When (if?) that day comes, all his posts will be about putting the boulders back in

No biggie. Dad will pay for it.

Look, do you want to ski The Rumor or not?  If yes, grade it so it requires less snow to open.  Those rocks and ledges all need to be covered for it to open.  Take them out and less snow is needed.

Grading out the ledges and rocks just makes it easier to cover.  It'll still be the steep challenging trail you know, just open a whole lot more.

Okemo's trails are repetitive, but at least they can open all their lifts by 12/26 every year while Gore takes over a month longer.  I'd rather ski repetitive trails than have half the mountain closed, or trails with snowmaking that aren't blown every year.