The latest ORDA Screwup

TheGreatAbyss wrote

Again - The lodging needs to come first.

I guess that's the NYS DEC?

This is just not true. Lodging does not have to come first. Demand has to come first.

ORDA needs to advertise Gore in the NYC Metro area. If Gore was turning 275K year after year, there would be more people looking to purchase housing near Gore. The problem is that this might steal visits from Lake Placid and the ORDA Board does not want to take that chance. Gore is an intermediates' paradise with the added attraction of no crowds or liftlines. This is where most skiers want to be skiing.

It should not be that hard to convince a bunch of skiers from the NYC metro area who are Mt Snow/Stratton/Okemo regulars who would like an easier drive, less crowds, less costs, more rustic type of skiing, to try out Gore. This is what drew me to Gore in the 1980s.

The problem is ZERO advertising in the NYC metro area.

Doubt Belle will never be more than a day tripper, and personally I’m not stopping there very often when I can go a little further to Platty.  

Gore absolutely could compete with So. VT, especially if their ops were more consistent.  Yes, advertising would help, and the idea that it isn’t advertised to protect WF/Placid is interesting.  Seems like there’s so much else going on in Placid that I’m not sure it’s true, but an interesting concept nonetheless.

As for Gore becoming more of a destination resort.....chicken meet egg.  Sure, if advertising increased visits/traffic perhaps it would spur development of more lodging.  Or probably not.  However, for Gore to compete with So. VT, or Placid, there’s no doubt there needs to be development and more lodging in North Creek.  I think Gore has great terrain.  With everything in play it’s hard to find a mountain that’s more fun.  However, I’ve never done more than a day trip there, and their inconsistent ops have even scared me off of doing that for the most part.  As is, I’ll never plan a weekend trip there with the fam because the lodging and off hill activities are lacking, pretty badly compared to the alternatives.

That crowd you are describing cares more about nice hotels, fancy restaurants, cocktail bars, and outdoor heated pools and hot tubs.  That shit just doesn't exist around Gore, at least in the capacity needed to draw that crowd in to make a noticeable dent in skier visits, especially during holiday periods.  

And no, they aren't going to want to stay 50 minutes down the road.  At that point they will go to SO VT.

Stratton is a shit show skiing wise.  Hour long lift lines, tiny gondola, crowded slopes, and icy terrible grooming.  Yet people flock there because it has a base village, and plenty to eat and do in the surrounding towns.  

It's more then just ORDA and the grooming.

This idea that someone is going to build lodging without demand doesn't make sense to me. When all the available rooms are full, more will be built. That seems basic.

Whatever factors that are keeping Gore's skier visits steady, I don't see that changing much as it looks like the business as a whole is slowly declining.

I don't think advertising will fix it. Should ORDA ask for and drop $20m in the New York metro for one season and see what happens? When that expenditure yields nothing, who's head will roll? I think spending it on snowmaking would have more impact.  Get it 100% open by Christmas!  That would matter.


What ski areas in the Northeast are growing their skiers visits? How are they doing it?

Full disclaimer, I personally don't care if Gore grows their skiers visits. I agree with X that another 50k visits probably wouldn't ruin the experience.

Gore's advantage is really southern NY and NJ. It is a lot closer to millions of people than much of VT.  Then there are the odd guys like me who like it because it's uncrowded, has no slopeside lodging, and minimal nightlife.

x10003q wrote

Lodging does not have to come first. Demand has to come first..

I agree with this, but for anyone who thinks that Gore's biggest problem is lack of lodging, there are plenty of dirt cheap business opportunities, and some more expensive ones:

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/196-Main-St-North-Creek-NY-12853/32925896_zpid/

Agree with Harv.  Gore will never, ever be anything like the developed VT big mountains, unless certain fundamental changes occur: (1) switch from public to private management (with profit incentive generally unconstrained by politics), (2) a change in NY State Constitution to significantly loosen mountain development, (3) a reversal of macro trends in NY/NJ population changes and (4) a reversal of macro trends in active skier levels.

None of this is going to happen.  And I know "never" is a strong word, but I am willing to say "never, ever, never".

So accept Gore for what it is, appreciate the improvements that have been made, and hope that the taxpayer-subsidized capital budgets keep coming.

Petronio

I think this would make a very cool high end Lodge for Skiers, Hikers, Hunters, etc.
https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/2090021260_zpid/43.877602,-73.852501,43.807154,-74.008198_rect/12_zm/

A real modern great camp - main lodge is 9 bed rooms (13,000 sq feet) and includes another Inn with 5 bedrooms.

Isn’t Friends Lake Inn a top shelf lodg8ng option close by?

How far is sagmore Resort?  Is that open in the winter

Someone was telling me that a chain hotel I think it was a holiday inn select wanted to go in near Gore but the local town would not approve the zoning request

Wow that is a beautiful building. Too far from Gore to be for skiers, but very cool.

Friends Lake in is reasonably close to Gore, but doesn't have too many rooms as I recall. It's known for it's dining too.

B&Bs don’t cater particularly well to the family set, which is what Gore needs to attract to become more of a destination resort.

Agreed, it’s not an “if you build it they will come” situation, but lodging options would be needed to support/sustain growth.

But growth just might be in the cards for Gore...

So the conclusion on this forum today is no more hotels,  marketing won't help, people won't travel from Queensbury, visits are flat, we love the lack of lines, and we are much more spoiled than VT and do not want the villages and amenities.  We are good then right?  Expanded terrain?  New lifts (AE2)....snowmaking needs cash I get it....

So maybe the way to make more $$ is a new bar pulling from existing customers.   Hmm.  

I'm the one who keeps posting that Gore needs development if it's going to increase skier visits, but for the record I don't want to see that development happen, nor do I think the risk/reward is there for any potential investors.  

Gore is what is.  Almost dying on Sagamore because you hit a loose chunk of ice is just part of the "fun"

Hoser wrote

So maybe the way to make more $$ is a new bar pulling from existing customers.   Hmm.

FWIW the Tannery probably made more money last MLK weekend then ever before.  The place was packed.

Hoser wrote

So maybe the way to make more $$ is a new bar pulling from existing customers.   Hmm.

So Harvey can move this particular Gore tangent to the Brightspot thread!

I think (?) the Tannery is run by Centerplate?  If so, Gore's cut is 15%.

Petronio wrote

Agree with Harv.  Gore will never, ever be anything like the developed VT big mountains, unless certain fundamental changes occur: (1) switch from public to private management (with profit incentive generally unconstrained by politics), (2) a change in NY State Constitution to significantly loosen mountain development, (3) a reversal of macro trends in NY/NJ population changes and (4) a reversal of macro trends in active skier levels.

None of this is going to happen.  And I know "never" is a strong word, but I am willing to say "never, ever, never".

So accept Gore for what it is, appreciate the improvements that have been made, and hope that the taxpayer-subsidized capital budgets keep coming.

Petronio

Nobody is suggesting Gore should or could turn into a SVT/600k visits per year ski area. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that after all the improvements/money spent at Gore over the last 20 years that visits should increase? Another 50k visits per year would not dramatically change the Gore experience, but it would improve the local North Creek area economy.

Okemo/Stratton/MtSnow/Bromley do around 1.5 million visits in total per ski season. If we cut that number down to 1/3 to eliminate people who will never go to Gore due to driving distance, amenities, property ownership, we end up with 500k visits. I think it would be possible to convince just 10% of this group to become Gore visitors.

FYI - there does not need to be any NYS Constitutional loosening for development to commence around Gore. The approved development Frontstreet Property has plans for 130 townhouses, multiple hotels, and some single family sites - all next to the NC Ski Bowl. If ORDA had done their job and promoted Gore in NYC metro (or other metro areas), maybe this development would be further along.

One thing to remember about Gore and Whiteface - Gore  serves the majority of skiers better than Whiteface. Whiteface is a very limited intermediate mountain. Gore is one of the great intermediate ski areas in the East. Throw in Whiteface's further distance from NYC metro and you might understand why ORDA is reluctant to promote Gore over WF. I have seen WF ads in and around NYC metro, but I have never seen an ad for Gore. How could that be?

x10003q wrote

Nobody is suggesting Gore should or could turn into a SVT/600k visits per year ski area. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that after all the improvements/money spent at Gore over the last 20 years that visits should increase? Another 50k visits per year would not dramatically change the Gore experience, but it would improve the local North Creek area economy.

Okemo/Stratton/MtSnow/Bromley do around 1.5 million visits in total per ski season. If we cut that number down to 1/3 to eliminate people who will never go to Gore due to driving distance, amenities, property ownership, we end up with 500k visits. I think it would be possible to convince just 10% of this group to become Gore visitors.

FYI - there does not need to be any NYS Constitutional loosening for development to commence around Gore. The approved development Frontstreet Property has plans for 130 townhouses, multiple hotels, and some single family sites - all next to the NC Ski Bowl. If ORDA had done their job and promoted Gore in NYC metro (or other metro areas), maybe this development would be further along.

One thing to remember about Gore and Whiteface - Gore  serves the majority of skiers better than Whiteface. Whiteface is a very limited intermediate mountain. Gore is one of the great intermediate ski areas in the East. Throw in Whiteface's further distance from NYC metro and you might understand why ORDA is reluctant to promote Gore over WF. I have seen WF ads in and around NYC metro, but I have never seen an ad for Gore. How could that be?

All valid points.  Stratton advertises almost every year in Grand Central Station.  I have seen Gore lately advertised on tv but only as part of the "NY State" winter commercials along with other Destination -- some of the worst tv advertising money ever spent IMO.

So, you still need Gore to disengage from ORDA, if the prime reason for ORDA is to protect Lake Placid.  I have no insight into that latter assumption.

Petronio

The Sagamore in Lake George does some promotions with Gore.  Some of my family members took advantage of a lodging/lift ticket deal and had a great experience that they plan on doing again.  Those family members are retired and didn't mind driving to the mountain, especially because the accommodations at The Sagamore were so nice.

Most people that I know and ski with in WNY with don't even know Gore exists, or just think Whiteface or a trip to Vermont is more worth their while when traveling.  However, those who have actually skied at Gore always have a great time and plan return trips.  Many of the people I know who travel to ski WF come back frustrated by the terrain, wind, and ice.  Most people I know who travel to Vermont return to that same mountain due to familiarity. I really think Gore's biggest miss from the skier-visit standpoint is a lack of advertising.  That's definitely ORDA's problem. North Creek as a town isn't necessarily doing many favors from an attractions standpoint, but there is some nice lodging available.  Would a shuttle running from select locations in Indian Lake or Lake George help the cause for destination skiers?  Is that missing the mark completely?

TheGreatAbyss wrote

That crowd you are describing cares more about nice hotels, fancy restaurants, cocktail bars, and outdoor heated pools and hot tubs.  That shit just doesn't exist around Gore, at least in the capacity needed to draw that crowd in to make a noticeable dent in skier visits, especially during holiday periods.  

Theres nothing like that around Killington. Well, a few places a rube would consider "fancy", but, the product there is a ski hill that delivers all week all season with lifts, snowmaking,  and grooming. And they get the crowds.

I keep on saying, and I'll say it again. I'm not driving four hours to a ski hill that is basically more than half closed. No way. And Stowe is looking like a mistake in my life too. Did you hear about yesterday's hour long broken chair and everything shut down AGAIN due to wind? On the weekend? Thanks, Vail Inc.. Goodbye Epic.