The latest ORDA Screwup

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Well, if it wan't for Orda, there wouldn't be Gore and Bellayre, and one wonders about Whiteface, so, you know, consider that.

ORDA exists to make sure Lake Placid fills its beds and businesses and to make sure North Creek and Gore never steal customers from Lake Placid.

I don't understand that - ORDA has invested a lot in both Gore and Bell.

PeeTex wrote

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Well, if it wan't for Orda, there wouldn't be Gore and Bellayre, and one wonders about Whiteface, so, you know, consider that.

ORDA exists to make sure Lake Placid fills its beds and businesses and to make sure North Creek and Gore never steal customers from Lake Placid.

I don't understand that - ORDA has invested a lot in both Gore and Bell.

New York State (not ORDA) has invested a lot of money in Gore and Bell, ORDA was just the administrator. Pataki had to specifically earmark money for the expansion of Gore or it would have been lost in Lake Placid.

x10003q wrote

PeeTex wrote

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Well, if it wan't for Orda, there wouldn't be Gore and Bellayre, and one wonders about Whiteface, so, you know, consider that.

ORDA exists to make sure Lake Placid fills its beds and businesses and to make sure North Creek and Gore never steal customers from Lake Placid.

I don't understand that - ORDA has invested a lot in both Gore and Bell.

New York State (not ORDA) has invested a lot of money in Gore and Bell, ORDA was just the administrator. Pataki had to specifically earmark money for the expansion of Gore or it would have been lost in Lake Placid.

But the new head of ORDA is a Gore guy, the ORDA board has people from NC. This just doesn't make sense.

Um, yeah.

Administrator? What's that? Dude, it's all about budgets. He who controls the pursestrings has the power.

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Well, if it wan't for Orda, there wouldn't be Gore and Bellayre, and one wonders about Whiteface, so, you know, consider that.

ORDA exists to make sure Lake Placid fills its beds and businesses and to make sure North Creek and Gore never steal customers from Lake Placid.

Whiteface (1958), Gore(1964), and Belleayre(1949) existed long before ORDA came to be in the late 1970s, to support the 1980 Olympics in Lake Placed. ORDA has managed to keep North Creek/Gore off the radar, despite the fact that Gore now offers similar terrain/lifts/snowmaking to Mt Snow, Stratton, and Okemo and is easier to get to from much of the NYC metro area.

 Oh, dude, there's plenty of ski areas that existed in the 60s that don't anymore. If it wasn't for the taxpayers of the state of NY, doubtful Gore or, certainly Bellayre, would today. Get real. ORDA is poorly managed workfare charity for both the ADK and the Catskills, which is ok, I'm cool with the workfare part, as long as I don't show up on a weekday and nothing is running and somebody tells me that, sorry, they're understaffed. I mean, stop thinking of yourselves, lame-o state employees called managers, and start running this thing like a business with unlimited funds.
Anyway, you're being awfully naive that Gore is somehow a neglected black child within ORDA that would even exist on it's own. Please.

So who takes responsibility for Gore not increasing its skier visits after the huge increase in size, snowmaking, lifts, facilities? NYS has invested millions of $$$$$ into Gore, yet it is still drawing around 215K. ORDA is tasked to improve the local economy and that includes North Creek. The entire ORDA board should be replaced. The numbers tell the truth.
Gore
Season         Skier Visits
2000 - 2001       185,900
2001 - 2002       173,530
2002 - 2003       213,929
2003 - 2004       215,707
2004 – 2005       212,703
2005 – 2006       207,299
2006 – 2007       209,353
2007 – 2008       238,467
2008 – 2009       230,791
2009 – 2010       218,166
2010 – 2011       217,032
2011 – 2012 (not reported)
2012 – 2013 (not reported)
2013 – 2014       241,452
2014 – 2015       237,032
2015 – 2016       160,484
2016 – 2017       211,487
2017 – 2018       212,387

The buck stops here.

Benny Profane wrote

 If it wasn't for the taxpayers of the state of NY, doubtful Gore or, certainly Bellayre, would today.

I think that statement is somewhat true, in the sense that if you assume that ADK Park restrictions remained in place, and Gore did not get any NYS money, would Gore be what it is today.  Almost certainly not.  But if you take away the park restrictions on development, and have a private company willing to invest in better snowmaking coverage, marketing and on-mountain development, I think the physical attributes of Gore and the ease of access from NY metro would make it a killer location for a ski resort.

Having finished 4 years as a season passholder, I came to accept that the things that limit Gore are the same thing that make it a special place.  No on-mountain development despite big mountain feel, an uncrowded feeling on parts of the mountain even when the cars are parked down the mountain road, and the general lack of the types of consumerist rich folk that I am trying to get away from in the first place.

Petronio  

True. That's it for me. I was told about Gore when I complained of the crowds in Vermont on Saturdays, and it proved to be a better alternative, plus it was a half hour closer than Killington from Saratoga, where I lived. No condos, dead town, I assume most of the second homes are winterfied Lake George stuff. Worked for me, except for the shorter season and lower elevation. It would be a shame if they screwed up the park views with condo towns.

I've been thinking lately that the whole argument about development is almost moot now, in the winter of baby boomdom. There really isn't much demand for Eastern ski real estate these days, it's been dying for years, along with the generation that started it dying. Cheap air fare is killing that market, too, just like it killed 50s Catskills for Florida. And, even though the west is a healthier market (hell,  I can't afford it out there, but I can get a ski in and out condo at Pico for less than a lot of cars) when's the last time you've heard if a new resort opening or a lot of development outside of the .1% billionaire market out there? Skiing is shrinking. It's a limited market that's saturated. I've been going to Killington for thirty years, and in the last five to ten I've been driving by more and more derelict motels and buildings on 4 and even the access road. Nobody wants them. So, be happy the taxpayer keeps ORDA running.

If so, then what will slopeside communities look like 20 years from now?

Pretty lil meth towns or will ski bumming make a comeback?

I read an article last week about the incredibly shrinking golf market, which is similar in time frame and demographic. Remember when golf courses were going to save ski resorts with summer income? Now theres hundreds of communities around the country that were built all around courses, which, of course, are really expensive to create and maintain, and the golf courses have shut down or are hurting, big time, so they jack up the membership fees to survive (you know, like 200 dollar plus lift tickets we see today). And kids dont care, or can't afford the money or time, just like skiing. They have debt from school and lousy jobs.

So, yeah, maybe they will turn into meth mills. But maybe they'll just be abandoned, neglected, because its too hard to live there. Although, if you want to experience a place that's creepy and underpopulated, check out that new vilage at Stowe midweek. Where is everybody.

x10003q wrote

So who takes responsibility for Gore not increasing its skier visits after the huge increase in size, snowmaking, lifts, facilities? NYS has invested millions of $$$$$ into Gore, yet it is still drawing around 215K. ORDA is tasked to improve the local economy and that includes North Creek. The entire ORDA board should be replaced. The numbers tell the truth.
Gore
Season         Skier Visits
2000 - 2001       185,900
2001 - 2002       173,530
2002 - 2003       213,929
2003 - 2004       215,707
2004 – 2005       212,703
2005 – 2006       207,299
2006 – 2007       209,353
2007 – 2008       238,467
2008 – 2009       230,791
2009 – 2010       218,166
2010 – 2011       217,032
2011 – 2012 (not reported)
2012 – 2013 (not reported)
2013 – 2014       241,452
2014 – 2015       237,032
2015 – 2016       160,484
2016 – 2017       211,487
2017 – 2018       212,387

OK - but your thesis was that ORDA favored Lake Placid over the other venues. If anything ORDA has been doing everything it can within the budget given to them by the state and the money made at the venues to keep these numbers from falling. They certainly have turned the decline in skier visits to Bell around, yet you dismiss that fact.
They (or the state) has poured a lot of money into Gore and Bell over the past 5 years yet you dismiss that fact. They may poorly manage projects, fight ageing infrastructure issues and the like but they are throwing money at these venues.

What I find fascinating in this thread is that several years ago there was a little snot nosed kid who came in bitching wildly about how F'd up ORDA was - "If you can't blow it don't cut it", "The mountain should be 100% open by Christmas", "High speed bubble quads everywhere" and this crowd beat the war drums and just about ran this "radical" out of town. Now see where we are...

While skiing definitely has demographic issues, I think golf is in bigger trouble.

Regarding Gore numbers, how do they compare to the industry as a whole, and other mountains in the Northeast?

EDIT: I found this...

i find it interesting that some of the biggest years , where during the "Great Recession"..

JasonWx wrote

i find it interesting that some of the biggest years , where during the "Great Recession"..

Probably more tied to weather than anything else. The impact of the recession could be less destination trips, back then.

Here's the rub:  

The average walk-up lift ticket in the US is $123 for an adult right now.  Gore charges $88 on a weekend.

If you want improved facilities and a more consistant experience like the kind you might find at say Mt. Snow, Okemo, or Stratton, expect to pay a lot more than $88/day for it.

So pick your poison here:  Second class mountain with (relatively) cheap day tickets or First class with much more expensive tickets.

St. Jerry wrote

So pick your poison here:  Second class mountain with (relatively) cheap day tickets or First class with much more expensive tickets.

And longer lift lines and greater skier density.

About ten years ago I asked Mike Pratt what percentage of ticket revenue is passholder vs day ticket for Gore.

He told me that it was around 20% for passholders. Obvi could be different now, but I'd guess that day ticket price is still pretty important.

Harvey wrote

JasonWx wrote

i find it interesting that some of the biggest years , where during the "Great Recession"..

Probably more tied to weather than anything else. The impact of the recession could be less destination trips, back then.

I think it was the skiing demographic cutting back for a few years on big trips for the family, like everyone else, because those were scary times. They stayed close to home. I think Vermont was up, too. But, when the dust started to settle and they realized that they were going to be saved by the bailout, as their house values at least didnt drop, sometimes went up, and their jobs were safe, they were right back on the upper middle class party train, with the lowest interest rates in decades. I'll admit that when that financial crash happened, I thought, awesome, perfect timing, because I was retiring, and I could grab a cheap condo out west at a nice discount. Nope, the opposite happened. If there's any market that proves that there was an unequeal recovery in this country, it's the western ski housing market. The top ten percent are doing well.

St. Jerry wrote

Here's the rub:  

The average walk-up lift ticket in the US is $123 for an adult right now.  Gore charges $88 on a weekend.

If you want improved facilities and a more consistant experience like the kind you might find at say Mt. Snow, Okemo, or Stratton, expect to pay a lot more than $88/day for it.

So pick your poison here:  Second class mountain with (relatively) cheap day tickets or First class with much more expensive tickets.

I'll take 2nd class, low key, rustic all day!

Benny Profane wrote

I've been thinking lately that the whole argument about development is almost moot now, in the winter of baby boomdom. There really isn't much demand for Eastern ski real estate these days, it's been dying for years, along with the generation that started it dying.

As a thirty-something millennial living in Brooklyn with a bunch of other millennials I can confirm this.  No one skis, and the few that do ski, go for one or two weekends a year to Vermont.  They certainly aren't buying vacation homes in ski country.  Even as someone who does ski 30+ days a season the math of owning a vacation home makes it tough to justify the hassle of it.

Gore's biggest issue IMHO is the lack of lodging.  If you're not a local day tripper from the capital region there just aren't that many options, especially nice enough options to justify going to Gore over VT for the masses who don't care how many glades the mountain has.  The Copperfield charges $200+ a night and doesn't even have a hot tub.  

You want to fix ORDA?  You need to increase skier visits to make Gore a 7 day a week resort to justify the expense.  To get NYS to allow development of hotels in the surrounding area you need the skier visits to justify it.  But given the demographic shifts and future climate change I can't see that being a smart investment long term.

The development you need to fix Gore is just never going to happen.  As others have said Gore is great for what it is.  If you want a well run 7 day a week mountain and long lift lines go to VT.