The latest ORDA Screwup

PeeTex wrote

OK - but your thesis was that ORDA favored Lake Placid over the other venues. If anything ORDA has been doing everything it can within the budget given to them by the state and the money made at the venues to keep these numbers from falling. They certainly have turned the decline in skier visits to Bell around, yet you dismiss that fact.

I did not mention Belleayre because this thread is about Gore and why Gore is so underutilized. Since you mentioned Belleayre (ORDA took over in 2012), here are the visitor numbers. ORDA has not turned around Belleayre.
Belleayre Visits
2007-2008  181,509
2008-2009  154,726
2009-2010  169,163
2010-2011  167,036
2011-2012    87,431
2012-2013   118,395
2013-2014   131,257
2014-2015     75,250
2015-2016    124,345
2016-2017    136,667

PeeTex wrote

They (or the state) has poured a lot of money into Gore and Bell over the past 5 years yet you dismiss that fact. They may poorly manage projects, fight ageing infrastructure issues and the like but they are throwing money at these venues.

I did not dismiss the spending, I highlighted the spending as a reason for the ORDA failure. They have spent a lot of money at Gore and visits have gone down in the last 5 years. Since the current gondola was installed in 1999, Gore has almost tripled the acreage.  Ski areas that expand in size and make huge capital improvements are not doing it for status quo, they are expecting to increase visits, revenue and profit.

PeeTex wrote

What I find fascinating in this thread is that several years ago there was a little snot nosed kid who came in bitching wildly about how F'd up ORDA was - "If you can't blow it don't cut it", "The mountain should be 100% open by Christmas", "High speed bubble quads everywhere" and this crowd beat the war drums and just about ran this "radical" out of town. Now see where we are...

There is more understanding on this board to how Gore can operate than your brief, flawed recap of Snoloco vs the board. Nobody expects Gore to be turning a Okemo/Stratton/Mt Snow like 500k- 600k visits with all that comes with that. However, Gore could easily be running 275k visits per season and still not be crowded, yet have enough cash flow to pay the salaries that are needed to retain important employees, run more snowmaking, keep more lifts operating, open pods sooner, do projects more quickly (how long did it take to get the old top gondola building into operation?). How is it possible that ORDA has not managed to increase Gore's 20 year seasonal average of 211K with all the money and expansion?

ORDA took over Gore in 1984. Has North Creek really seen any economic benefits from ORDA running Gore? Remember, the capital money comes from NYS not ORDA. ORDA is mandated to improve local economies and they have not done this for North Creek.

What has been done at Belleayre and Gore to add revenue during the non-winter months?  Is either one being promoted for summer activities?  Without any lodging, becoming a 4-season resort is not an option but if Berkshire East can figure out how to make money during the summer, should be possible for Belle and Gore too.  Another example is that Magic came up with a disc golf league idea that seemed pretty active last summer.

I would bet that the VT mountains get to those skier visit numbers mostly over the holiday weekends when the excess lodging capacity in those towns fill up.   Gore's lodging actually does book up over those holiday weekends, and believe it or not, it's actually hard to find a room.  

Again - There's nothing ORDA can do to boost skier visits if people don't have anywhere to stay.

x10003q wrote

I did not mention Belleayre because this thread is about Gore and why Gore is so underutilized.

This thread is about ORDA and was started to talk more about WF than Gore.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

Benny Profane wrote

I've been thinking lately that the whole argument about development is almost moot now, in the winter of baby boomdom. There really isn't much demand for Eastern ski real estate these days, it's been dying for years, along with the generation that started it dying.

As a thirty-something millennial living in Brooklyn with a bunch of other millennials I can confirm this.  No one skis, and the few that do ski, go for one or two weekends a year to Vermont.  They certainly aren't buying vacation homes in ski country.  Even as someone who does ski 30+ days a season the math of owning a vacation home makes it tough to justify the hassle of it.

Gore's biggest issue IMHO is the lack of lodging.  If you're not a local day tripper from the capital region there just aren't that many options, especially nice enough options to justify going to Gore over VT for the masses who don't care how many glades the mountain has.  The Copperfield charges $200+ a night and doesn't even have a hot tub.  

You want to fix ORDA?  You need to increase skier visits to make Gore a 7 day a week resort to justify the expense.  To get NYS to allow development of hotels in the surrounding area you need the skier visits to justify it.  But given the demographic shifts and future climate change I can't see that being a smart investment long term.

The development you need to fix Gore is just never going to happen.  As others have said Gore is great for what it is.  If you want a well run 7 day a week mountain and long lift lines go to VT.

Dude, here's my game, and you can buy me a beer sometime for the tip. Stay in Saratoga Springs. Yeah, I know, an hour drive, but, an easy hour. Half is on the Northway, half on 28 with only a slowdown going through Warrensburg, and, yes, don't get cute with speed limits in Warrensburg. All plowed fast. Saratoga is a great party town that's open all year because it's a college town with a rich kid's school. Rooms are cheap because the hotel infrastructure is heavily built up for the summer market and race season, so deals abound in the slow winter. Great food, bars (don't miss 9 Maple), and sometimes music. It's the coolest town up there. So just set the alarm early and, well, you'll be home early anyway. Shortens the drive up from NYC, too. Three hours from Westchester.

When driving through Warrensburg on the way back, you are required to stop at Oscars Smokehouse. Trust me.

It seems Sno was ahead of his time.  WF can’t blow what they have yet are taliking about cutting two new trails off the new i replacement lift.  

I’ve been skiing at WF for a long time and while there always has been issues the locals are really pissed off this season due to management incompetence and try8ng to change the mts culture.  You simply can’t defer maintenance for ever and not pay the piper eventually.  Why is the blown snow so wet this Yr?

Today they only loaded about half the Gondi cars on line and then continued the undefensible policy of only loading 6 to a Gondi car. Sure it was windy which is not thier fault but by not filling the Gondi cabins the wait at 11 am was 25 mins and that was in the singles line.  Killington and Gore both use a single amusement park style snake line plus a single line.  That works so much better than the stupid system WF uses and gets 8 people in in less space than WF has now.  Loading 8 to a Gondi cabin is not rocket science come on and keys get this fixed.

PeeTex wrote

x10003q wrote

I did not mention Belleayre because this thread is about Gore and why Gore is so underutilized.

This thread is about ORDA and was started to talk more about WF than Gore.

PT
I specifically said this thread is about Orda not WF.  I mostly ski at WF but have encouraged gore peeps to add and given that Pratt now runs it all the problems from Gore have landed on WFs agenda as well.  I’ve come to the conclusion that Pratt is THE problem and he needs to go.

We don’t have many Bell posters and I have very little nice to say about the place.  

Z wrote

PT
I specifically said this thread is about Orda not WF.  

And how is that inconsistent with what I said?

Because I’ve actively encouraged input from Gore peeps and they have picked up the ball.  There are few Bell peeps and imo  if you live down there and if you pick Bell as your home hill over Platty you have a screw loose.

If you go back to why Gore visits didn’t grow?  Who ran Gore?  Pratt.  He thinks the way to run things is to not spend money to improve guest experience. No maintenance and just wait until it breaks like the LWF or Bunny Hutch which is now toast.  I skied Gore yesterday and WF today.  Gore was a 1 maybe a 2 out of 10 yesterday and even with lift issues WF was a 7 today.  Unfortunately the Pratt way is screwing up WF now.  AK gets the flak but I doubt he is call8ng the shots.  He appears to be hiding in his office lately rather than face the music.   The locals are pissed in LP, business owners are talking, the board starts taking flak from the businesses and Pratt’s days are likely numbered.

If the Bunny Hutch can’t run presidents weekend and they moved all the lessons over there the guests are going be mad and the shit will roll uphill towards Pratt.

TheGreatAbyss wrote

Benny Profane wrote

I've been thinking lately that the whole argument about development is almost moot now, in the winter of baby boomdom. There really isn't much demand for Eastern ski real estate these days, it's been dying for years, along with the generation that started it dying.

As a thirty-something millennial living in Brooklyn with a bunch of other millennials I can confirm this.  No one skis, and the few that do ski, go for one or two weekends a year to Vermont.  They certainly aren't buying vacation homes in ski country.  Even as someone who does ski 30+ days a season the math of owning a vacation home makes it tough to justify the hassle of it.

Gore's biggest issue IMHO is the lack of lodging.  If you're not a local day tripper from the capital region there just aren't that many options, especially nice enough options to justify going to Gore over VT for the masses who don't care how many glades the mountain has.  The Copperfield charges $200+ a night and doesn't even have a hot tub.  

You want to fix ORDA?  You need to increase skier visits to make Gore a 7 day a week resort to justify the expense.  To get NYS to allow development of hotels in the surrounding area you need the skier visits to justify it.  But given the demographic shifts and future climate change I can't see that being a smart investment long term.

The development you need to fix Gore is just never going to happen.  As others have said Gore is great for what it is.  If you want a well run 7 day a week mountain and long lift lines go to VT.

As a fellow 30 something millenial, although living in a much cheaper place (Syracuse), this still holds true. Growing up, most of my friends in high school and college skied. These days none of them do. Combination of college loans, crazy hours at work, starting families, etc. Most of it though is expense, although multi-mountain passes are starting to help in that regard.

Even so, having enough to buy a vacation home, much less a season pass, is a stretch for most. I thank my lucky stars that I was lucky enough to be born into a family that has a place in the ADK's within an hour ish of Gore and two of WF. However, most don't have this luxury, and had I not been, no way I would afford to be able to have a second vacation ski home. Although I pay into maintaining my share of our family place, its a fraction of the hassle and cost of a ski home in VT or even elsewhere in the ADKs.

A huge issue with most of my friends and skiing (myself included) is even getting a day off work to go ski. Weekends aren't safe these days, and even today skiing I had to answer a call from work about a crises. I hate it, but the work never ends, and as such, makes it tougher to get out and ski. Not saying this is a millennial thing as its the general trend in the workplace and affects plenty of older folks I ski with as well. Just a sucky thing that limits the ability to have time and go out and ski and not unique to Gore.

I agree lodging at Gore is an issue. Before we winterized our place in the ADK's, we used to stay in hotel rooms up there frequently and finding reasonable places to stay on a non-holiday weekend could be tough. On a holiday weekend forget about it. While you can find a place in Lake George or Warrensburg when North Creek books up, the drive deters a lot of people who want the convenience of on mountain lodging or a 0-15 minute drive that most in VT offer. Never bothered me, but family I skied with who fit the more traditional mainstream skier demographic were turned off by it.

I love Gore and it's lack of development. That same lack of development though is why skier visits have stayed where they are IMO.

My biggest gripe with Gore is the issues with snowmaking and grooming. When the natural snow is plentiful I could care less. After a freeze/thaw or rain I know conditions are much better elsewhere based on skiing other east coast mountains after such. I still ski Gore when it sucks since it's more convenient, and I have a pass, but know many others who would buy a day ticket will take there money elsewhere knowing Gore is a place to ski only when they've gotten dumped on because of there issues with recovering from less than ideal east coast conditions.

Kleetus wrote

A huge issue with most of my friends and skiing (myself included) is even getting a day off work to go ski. Weekends aren't safe these days, and even today skiing I had to answer a call from work about a crises. I hate it, but the work never ends, and as such, makes it tougher to get out and ski. Not saying this is a millennial thing as its the general trend in the workplace and affects plenty of older folks I ski with as well. Just a sucky thing that limits the ability to have time and go out and ski and not unique to Gore.

FKNA I feel your pain Kleetus.

Gore seems to recover from freeze thaws / rain much worse than just about anywhere I’ve skied.  

Skiing with some long time Gore guys yesterday they mentioned Gore sets the tiller very thin on the groomer.  I noticed that troughs of bumps were still present which you don’t often see elsewhere.  They also blow thin and not edge to edge plus you have more pooling of water into icedue to the flat nature of the terrain.  Very afraid these Prattisms are headed north.

x10003q wrote

ORDA took over Gore in 1984. Has North Creek really seen any economic benefits from ORDA running Gore?

I looked to see if North Creek was being helped by all of the millions they poured into Gore and found this:
 
  Population - 2018      1,351
  Population - 2010 1,770
  Population - 2000 2,082
  Population - 1990 2,412
  Pop. 1990 to Now -43.99%


Holy shit.

Kleetus wrote

As a fellow 30 something millenial, although living in a much cheaper place (Syracuse), this still holds true. Growing up, most of my friends in high school and college skied. These days none of them do. Combination of college loans, crazy hours at work, starting families, etc. Most of it though is expense, although multi-mountain passes are starting to help in that regard...

... However, most don't have this luxury, and had I not been, no way I would afford to be able to have a second vacation ski home...

A huge issue with most of my friends and skiing (myself included) is even getting a day off work to go ski. Weekends aren't safe these days, and even today skiing I had to answer a call from work about a crises. I hate it, but the work never ends, and as such, makes it tougher to get out and ski. Not saying this is a millennial thing as its the general trend in the workplace and affects plenty of older folks I ski with as well. Just a sucky thing that limits the ability to have time and go out and ski and not unique to Gore.

These are all political problems with political solutions, and I'd have to switch forums to talk about them completely, but, generally, jobs these days provide less to their employees in terms of salaries, benefits & vacation at the same time as they're expecting the employees to do more (be available 24/7, come in on weekends, etc.). In the olden days, even middle class families could afford a small camp and the time off to use it. And they weren't burdened by 10s of thousands of dollars in student loans.

If you're interested in more of my rants about how state college should be free and workplaces should be forced to pay higher salaries & give us the vacation days that other countries get, there's a forum for that. (EDIT to add this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/opinion/buttigieg-2020-millennials.html)

Wow - population is half.  Can imagine up through Indian Lake is even worse.  No more diner, grocery store, really anything.  Good Mexican restaurant though.   Great for those who like to explore, and get aware from the High Peaks crowds.   At what price though.  Still no traffic lights in Hamilton County     Which is Awesome

I like six in the box. They are not rated to carry 8 2019 people. We are fat. Look at the weight limit then look around the box.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Kleetus wrote

As a fellow 30 something millenial, although living in a much cheaper place (Syracuse), this still holds true. Growing up, most of my friends in high school and college skied. These days none of them do. Combination of college loans, crazy hours at work, starting families, etc. Most of it though is expense, although multi-mountain passes are starting to help in that regard...

... However, most don't have this luxury, and had I not been, no way I would afford to be able to have a second vacation ski home...

A huge issue with most of my friends and skiing (myself included) is even getting a day off work to go ski. Weekends aren't safe these days, and even today skiing I had to answer a call from work about a crises. I hate it, but the work never ends, and as such, makes it tougher to get out and ski. Not saying this is a millennial thing as its the general trend in the workplace and affects plenty of older folks I ski with as well. Just a sucky thing that limits the ability to have time and go out and ski and not unique to Gore.

These are all political problems with political solutions, and I'd have to switch forums to talk about them completely, but, generally, jobs these days provide less to their employees in terms of salaries, benefits & vacation at the same time as they're expecting the employees to do more (be available 24/7, come in on weekends, etc.). In the olden days, even middle class families could afford a small camp and the time off to use it. And they weren't burdened by 10s of thousands of dollars in student loans.

If you're interested in more of my rants about how state college should be free and workplaces should be forced to pay higher salaries & give us the vacation days that other countries get, there's a forum for that. (EDIT to add this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/opinion/buttigieg-2020-millennials.html)

OMG -- stop, just stop

There is a lot of talk about money here and that is absolutely valid but it goes deeper than that.  It goes to just good management and common sense.  Other than my brief part time weekend gig at Gore my work experience is almost 40 years in private industry.  Let me tell you, none of the companies that I worked for would stand for the nonsense that goes on at Gore.  People making these decisions would have been out of a job.

Here are just a few of the decisions that have been made at Gore that would have cost little to nothing but were critical to the skier experience and mountain operations:

Failure to cut back Uncas.
Piss poor grooming (lack of grooming on trails frequented by beginners, skim coat grooming that accomplishes nothing more that a good early morning photo op., etc)
Lift operations - Knowing that the gondola was experiencing day-in, day-out breakdowns and not having contingency plans in place.
Lift operations - Not running the ADK Express and Sunway Chair forcing skiers of all abilities to the top of Bear and then leaving them the choice of boiler plate Foxlair, poor snow making and grooming at the top of Ruby (early this season) or uncut Uncas.
Purchasing new snowmaking equipment and then screwing up the installation of new pumps.  Not being aware of the pressure requirements of the system and then blowing out old, outdated, corroded pipes on the mountain.
Having prime snowmaking opportunities and running just a handful of guns.  If we are not a few days prior to a "Holiday" week or weekend it seems that management doesn't give two craps about conditions for regulars and passholders.

I'm sure that people here could contribute many more things to this list.  As I said, for the most part these are not money issues, there are just plain poor decisions.  Poor decisions and it seems as though the powers that be just don't care.

I think the one that just blows my mind this year is the Uncas deal.  What the hell???  I've heard it said that people were pulled of trail maintenance to help out with the new bar because it was behind schedule (this is just hearsay for me).  Are you kidding me????  This is a SKI mountain!  If you can't provide a good product....SKIING, who the hell cares about the damn bar?  Again, in the world that I come from, if I had been in charge of trail maintenance and Uncas was in that condition at the beginning of the season I would have been out of work.  The warped priorities of this operation are sickening.

Now for those that say stop bitching and go elsewhere.....well there are a few reasons I am bitching and a few that I don't go elsewhere.  I am a NYS taxpayer....seeing my money wasted makes me sick.  I am a season passholder....seeing that money poorly spent and the little regard that they have for us on a day in day out basis is just wrong.  I live just 30 minutes from the mountain so going somewhere else is a big deal.  As has been pointed out, skiing is an expensive commitment.  In my case it means making sacrifices and making sure that I buy my pass early to get the best price.  I couldn't do this otherwise, I have been priced out by most of the VT and western mountains.  I don't expect the same experience for the price I pay but I do expect to see my dollars well spent.

It is sad to see such incompetence going on.  Gore is a gem, it is a special, unique mountain that can be a great experience on a good day.  Poor management and decisions make those days a rarity.  I'll still go there (I'm on my way today) but it's too bad that I spend so much time wondering.....What if?

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Kleetus wrote

As a fellow 30 something millenial, although living in a much cheaper place (Syracuse), this still holds true. Growing up, most of my friends in high school and college skied. These days none of them do. Combination of college loans, crazy hours at work, starting families, etc. Most of it though is expense, although multi-mountain passes are starting to help in that regard...

... However, most don't have this luxury, and had I not been, no way I would afford to be able to have a second vacation ski home...

A huge issue with most of my friends and skiing (myself included) is even getting a day off work to go ski. Weekends aren't safe these days, and even today skiing I had to answer a call from work about a crises. I hate it, but the work never ends, and as such, makes it tougher to get out and ski. Not saying this is a millennial thing as its the general trend in the workplace and affects plenty of older folks I ski with as well. Just a sucky thing that limits the ability to have time and go out and ski and not unique to Gore.

These are all political problems with political solutions, and I'd have to switch forums to talk about them completely, but, generally, jobs these days provide less to their employees in terms of salaries, benefits & vacation at the same time as they're expecting the employees to do more (be available 24/7, come in on weekends, etc.). In the olden days, even middle class families could afford a small camp and the time off to use it. And they weren't burdened by 10s of thousands of dollars in student loans.

If you're interested in more of my rants about how state college should be free and workplaces should be forced to pay higher salaries & give us the vacation days that other countries get, there's a forum for that. (EDIT to add this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/opinion/buttigieg-2020-millennials.html)

This is not true..
My youngest daughter is graduating this semester. She has a job offer from a major company . Good pay and 4 weeks vacation.

My oldest daughter has been working for 2 years also has almost 4 week/year..

Of course there are exceptions , but I know many recent grads that have similar deals..

JasonWx wrote

This is not true..
My youngest daughter is graduating this semester. She has a job offer from a major company . Good pay and 4 weeks vacation.

My oldest daughter has been working for 2 years also has almost 4 week/year....

Oooh, a whole 20 days a year!!! Wow!!!

Meanwhile, in other countries:


Also, two examples of companies with decent vacation packages doesn't really make this statement "Not True":

generally, jobs these days provide less to their employees in terms of salaries, benefits & vacation at the same time as they're expecting the employees to do more (be available 24/7, come in on weekends, etc.)