Whiteface Conditions (2016 - 2017)

snoloco wrote

Arrgh, they opened Mountain Run the day after I was there!!  

Sno it's customary to pretend that what happens to other people matters too.

PRO TIP: Life is more fun if you actually do care about others.  Plus check this added bonus:  really caring is super-efficient as you don't make the effort to pretend.

Sorry for the thread drift Whiteface Nation.

Racing starts Saturday, so that will be the focus for snowmaking.  Approach was poached a few times.  I heard it was good.....that doesn't mean I skied it.

The rumor mill says that Parons is going to be next on snow tribes list after the race trails get covered.

I would next think that Easy Street and Boreen has to come next to net another route to the bottom and connect to Kids Kampus.

We might be at the point that Skyward could come get blown before Chrismas which would be f-ink awesome that though I also Wilderness and Mac need to get done.  It would be great to then make Sno happy and blow WT.  That would make me happy as we don't then have to yell teach over the sounds of guns during the Holiday week.

Heard rumors that someone put some tracks in Slide 1 yesterday.  This is really starting to come together.

Skiing was really good yesterday.  A bit crowded around Tower 10 was my only complaint and getting another route to the bottom would really help.

Debbie downers in the weather thread are saying there's r*in this weekend, but the forecast shows WF as being above it.  They also said that Christmas to New Years is in the crapper.

I think Approach has to come after they finish on Mt Run.  Has a lot of natural snow on it already, so shouldn't take much.  Needs to be open so one can get to the race trails midweek when Freeway isn't running.  Speaking of which, I know NYSEF pays ORDA to run that lift on weekdays when it wouldn't otherwise.  Is LWF also a midweek lift?

All lifts by Christmas would be great, but is unrealistic for a steep rocky mountain like WF, unless they double the snowmaking capacity.  I'd like to see Lookout open by the time I get back up here after winter break.  That's also just before MLK weekend.

Coach Z wrote

Heard rumors that someone put some tracks in Slide 1 yesterday.  This is really starting to come together.

I wonder how much of the 67 inches reported YTD is from Oct/early November storms that melted out or washed away, and how much is part of the base out there in the woods and slides.

Agreed, an encouraging start.  Even if some dreaded ncp comes, it can serve to lock in some of the base.  The season needs to be a marathon, not a sprint!

snoloco wrote

All lifts by Christmas would be great, but is unrealistic

Woah!

Nah,,,,,, Giddy-up ! Just cause Gore never gets all their lifts open (even by March! ) doesn't mean Face can't !

It's quite obvious that snowmaking capacity needs to be increased at Face and Gore.  Shouldn't even be a question that a lift will open in a given season.  In it's current status, all lifts by Christmas is impractical for WF.

I worry that if there's a January thaw that Lookout will be left to rot like last year because no one really complained about it on WF's social media pages and they realized it's an easy way to save $$$.

Hard to say, Sno. All lifts available does seem to be a thing, outside of ORDA.

That said, recent weather patterns/trends do raise major melt potential.

Sno

WF is in the APA and the DEC controls how much water that can be pulled from the river.  More pump and compressor capacity does no good if you cant draw the water down below a certain level.

You need to look at a different paradigm here.  

This forecast doesn't look all that bad.  We almost always have a few warmer days and this comes back with really cold nights right after.
http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/lake-placid-ny/12946/december-weather/339681

I believe they can pull up to 9000gpm from the river, not 100% sure though.  Whatever amount they can draw, I believe they rarely pull the max amount.  Air capacity is the limiting factor.  If they wanted to increase capacity, they should increase air capacity so they can pull max water on more occasions.

snoloco wrote

I believe they can pull up to 9000gpm from the river, not 100% sure though.

Gore is permitted to pull 9000 gpm from the Hudson, but rarely approach that. I'd be very surprised if the Ausable could handle that volume pulled from it.

I read that statistic off one of Adk Jeff's posts.  Both mountains can do about 30 acre feet per day.

Looking up the flow of that river, they'd be pulling about 5.6% at the current flow rate if they drew 9000gpm.  Earlier when the river was lower, they would've been taking about 8.1%. Not sure if that's acceptable or not.

A few years back we had a DEC guy that specialized in fishery work in ski school.  I recall he said the big issue is February mean flow rate.  Essentially making sure there is enough non frozen water for the trout to survive thru the winter.

All ORDA snowmaking ends after President's Weekend so not much of an issue there.

snoloco wrote

All ORDA snowmaking ends after President's Weekend so not much of an issue there.

So you'd be OK with no February snowmaking to protect one the the east's top trout waters. I see that as evolution.

Yes, as long as capacity is increased so that all snowmaking trails are covered every year no exceptions.  

I'd try and finish all terrain expansion by MLK Weekend, but still keep the system live until President's Weekend for any last minute resurfacing needs.

Whiteface's water withdrawals from the West Branch AuSable are regulated under a Cooperative Agreement entered into by ORDA and DEC and withdrawals are based upon stream flow that is measured in a sluice just above Whiteface's river intake built into the river bank below the gondola.

According to the 2003 version of this Agreement:

When stream flow is above 51.4 cfs maximum pumping withdrawal rates of 6,014 gpm are permitted.

When stream flow is between 38 and 51.4 cfs pumping rates will be reduced so that stream flow is not reduced to below 38 cfs.

Snowmaking water withdrawals are prohibited when stream flow is below 38 cfs.

Restrictions are in place to try and prevent the formation of river bottom "anchor ice" that can form under low flow conditions and can be very detrimental to the trout eggs that were spawned in the fall.

And you know what might help with keeping those flow rates up so they can make more snow......maybe a little ncp?  Two steps forward, one step back, two more forward.  It's the circle of (snow) life.  Into every life a little r*!n must fall.  Whatever doesn't kill us (or our snow) makes us stronger.

Give me a few more cliches to help peeps stop fretting if the weather wobbles!

I believe the flow rates are enough for pulling max water as of now.

Also what's with the snow report?  They're reporting Mountain Run as open, but Approach and LWF closed.  No way to get to it if that trail and lift are both closed.  Also looks like they finished snowmaking there, so guns could be moved to Approach.