Your Local Police: To Serve, Protect and Slap?

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Unions totally suck....that's just my opinion tho. We can agree to disagree

What would the middle class in this country look like if labor unions had come into being?

http://www.unionplus.org/about/labor-unions/36-reasons-thank-union

we'll never know for sure will we

i've never been in a union nor will i. i just know the thought of some lazy bastard riding on the coat tails of hard working men and women would really piss me off

Snowballs wrote

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Unions totally suck....that's just my opinion tho. We can agree to disagree

What would the middle class in this country look like if labor unions had come into being?

http://www.unionplus.org/about/labor-unions/36-reasons-thank-union

Hard to say. Your statement is ambiguous at best. Is that thanks to a teacher and the Teacher's Union ?

I didn't write a statement I asked a question. After rereading I see I left out the word not after had.

campgottagopee wrote

Unions totally suck....that's just my opinion tho. We can agree to disagree

I would not use the word "totally". Unions screwed themselves and the workers they were there to serve when they got greedy and corrupt. They have done a great job in areas of work place safety and education. They were also very much needed to provide a balance of power between the large corporations/mega-rich and worker oppression and abuse. But when they forget they are part of an ecosystem that needs both parties, that is when they suck. When the union bosses become abusive and corrupt, that is when they suck.

When they are working for the greater good, they can do great things.

No need to agree to disagree.  While there are some good things that have come about because of unions, I largely agree they suck.  Teachers unions, and the tenure system, protect way too many shitty, dead weight, useless teachers.  However, you shouldn't let that distract you from the fact that teachers in general are underpaid and under appreciated!

These threads always degrade into this: I myself am underpaid and underappreciated, but everyone else is overpaid and doesn't work hard enough. I'm worth it, but that other guy isn't.

Not saying that's not true for anyone (I'm sure it is for some), but this kind of sentiment is exactly what people at the top of the income ladder want. Keep the working class fighting over $50,000 or $60,000 a year while they make 50 times that in interest and rents. Pit Union and non Union workers against eachother, white people against black people, immigrants against natural born citizens, etc., and nobody will care that you're systematically taking money from all of them.

Punching down and punching sideways is completely useless.

JTG4eva! wrote

No need to agree to disagree.  While there are some good things that have come about because of unions, I largely agree they suck.  Teachers unions, and the tenure system, protect way too many shitty, dead weight, useless teachers.  However, you shouldn't let that distract you from the fact that teachers in general are underpaid and under appreciated!

So why did your under paid, under appreciated, highly educated wife stick with teaching for 25 years? Why not switch to a different career after 5-10 years of such horrible treatment?

Per contract:
Starting salary in my town for a teacher with a BA is $50k or $66.6k annualized.
Maximum # days/year is 189, typical is 183 days, teach 180 days. Like I said - 9 months.
Official hours that you have to be in - 8:50am-3:30pm plus 2 nights/year for conferences.

Yes, and reality is what you read in the contract.....

oo

mattchuck2 wrote

These threads always degrade into this: I myself am underpaid and underappreciated, but everyone else is overpaid and doesn't work hard enough. I'm worth it, but that other guy isn't. Not saying that's not true for anyone (I'm sure it is for some), but this kind of sentiment is exactly what people at the top of the income ladder want. Keep the working class fighting over $50,000 or $60,000 a year while they make 50 times that in interest and rents. Pit Union and non Union workers against eachother, white people against black people, immigrants against natural born citizens, etc., and nobody will care that you're systematically taking money from all of them. Punching down and punching sideways is completely useless.

This is the best comment I've ever read on this forum It's a damn shame that too few see it this way.

Spongeworthy wrote

oo

mattchuck2 wrote

These threads always degrade into this: I myself am underpaid and underappreciated, but everyone else is overpaid and doesn't work hard enough. I'm worth it, but that other guy isn't.

Not saying that's not true for anyone (I'm sure it is for some), but this kind of sentiment is exactly what people at the top of the income ladder want. Keep the working class fighting over $50,000 or $60,000 a year while they make 50 times that in interest and rents. Pit Union and non Union workers against eachother, white people against black people, immigrants against natural born citizens, etc., and nobody will care that you're systematically taking money from all of them.

Punching down and punching sideways is completely useless.

This is the best comment I've ever read on this forum
It's a damn shame that too few see it this way.

Yeah man...Matt's post is awesome. We fight for table scrapes while the 1% keeps getting fatter. The middle class is shrinking and the divide between haves and have not's keeps getting wider. The rich control elections by asserting their "First amendment" right of donating multi millions to political campaigns to buy politicians who will advance their economic agenda.

 

Seriously?

JTG4eva! wrote

Seriously?

Well I guess I'd like to get a conversation going to see if we can liven things up here a little. So instead of your condescending one word reply why don't you explain to me how what I wrote is wrong?
 

Last night, at about 9PM, I was on my deck sipping a cold one watching my neighbor farmer plow his corn field and it made me think of this thread. I wondered what Joey would think about vacation days, sick leave, personal time, unions, the 1% etc etc.......I came to the conclusion that he wouldn't give two shits about any of it, he has a field to plow.

Talk about a core group of hard working men and women who are grossly underpaid and under appreciated. Next time you see a farmer, give him a waive.....they like that shit

Sorry HPD, nothing condescending about my question.  I like to look before I leap, so I really do wonder how seriously you guys believe in those kinds of statements.  I don't want to respond, only to have someone say 'I was just shitting you'.  Respond I will then....

Drumroll please.........here is what is factually incorrect in your statement........

Absolutely nothing!!

Fuck, that was anticlimactic.

Ok, liven things up you say.  Well.....

Hello, McFlies........That's the America that pretty much always has been, and always will be.  If that America hasn't provided someone sufficient opportunity in life, and one doesn't like it, one can always feel free to take up an office and work to change things, or get the fuck out!  

I'm sure there is a commie or socialist society out there that will welcome those people with open arms, and they may even still be able to use their computer or smartphone to get on their internet and bitch on their skiing related blog about their lack of opportunity in a life of being kept down by the man.

Yes, even THOSE countries have their 1% to bitch about.

But here is the thing about the 1%, seriously.  Our founding fathers were the 1%.  Good old George was worth BILLIONS in today's dollars.  The captains of industry, the great industrialists that would grow the nation a century later, were the 1%.  Without the 1% there is no America.  You may not like that, and I agree it may not always be or seem fair, but we can't bemoan what got us where we are, and where it seems we choose to be, can we?

America, baby.....love it or leave it (and loving it includes trying to change the things you see as unfair or unjust).  I sincerely hope no feelings were hurt in the making of this great American public service announcement!!!

Well crafted...but pretty much the usual right wing arguments.

JTG4eva! wrote

I'm sure there is a commie or socialist society out there that will welcome those people with open arms

You guys on the right always have to throw in the mandatory commie take. As if wanting to see a level playing field for rich and poor alike is somehow Un-American.

JTG4eva! wrote

America, baby.....love it or leave it (and loving it includes trying to change the things you see as unfair or unjust).

I do love it and will never leave it. I just think the deck is stacked too much in the favor of the 1% and I would like to see that change. I think a good place to start would be real campaign finance reform.

JTG4eva! wrote

I sincerely hope no feelings were hurt in the making of this great American public service announcement!!!

You didn't hurt mine that's for sure. I enjoy an intelligent debate of issues. That said, you basically said if you don't like the way things are get the fuck out. That's kinda disappointing. I'm just as much an American as you I just have some different ideas on what would make our country even better.

Ah....the 'get the fuck out' is almost as obligatory as the right-wing commie take.  Had to throw them both out there!

Do notice, however, what I threw out there first.....the idea of taking up office, working the political system, as flawed as it may be, to effect change. Your thoughts on starting with campaign finance reform are spot on.  

Hell, you are probably a better American than I am, or have a more American spirit, because you have thoughts and ideas on what might make this country better.  Me, I hate politics and have become so jaded by them that I'm not sure reform and improvement is even possible!  

As for the 1% and how the deck is stacked......you avoided that whole part of my right wing rant!  Is the deck really stacked any differently now than it was in the past, and would America be the place you love without the 1% conundrum?  Was a level playing field, other than on a rights front, ever a tenet of American society?

As for the 1% and how the deck is stacked......you avoided that whole part of my right wing rant!  "Is the deck really stacked any differently now than it was in the past"

The answer to that is yes, the separation now is greater than at the time of the great trusts on the early 1900s.

What we keep forgetting is democracy and capitalism is an ecosystem, you need all parts. I recall a passage I read some time ago, I wish I could remember the author "Democracy creates wealth, wealth destroys democracy". The two decades after WW2 were probably the time when there was the most economic opportunity and equality, there was a huge redistribution of political power and wealth.

Another piece of food for thought, which political party brought forth the breaking up of the big trusts - the republicans. Who was called upon to fix the banking system after the Great Depression - Joe Kennedy. I mention this because I believe that the best hope for correction is not from those who are railing against the injustices, but rather from those who are in the middle of it and recognize the need for change such that the democracy is preserved.

My 2 cent

Unions are absolutely needed, that said everything is a ebb and flow.  For a long time unions abused the powers they wielded holding companies almost hostage with there ludicrous demands. The unions should be the ones to step up and fire unproductive workers not protect.  They have been picked apart over the last 20 years because what they were fighting for just does not make sense to any hard worker.  

2015 I see the need for unions to retool and begin to organize again. You all see the fall of the middle class, may I say that is a direct reflection unions being broken.  Lets use teachers unions as an example.  When a vote goes to the members you always notice the biggest class of members agreeing to reforms as long as it does not effect them.  Pensions, health care all the like.  You also notice teachers earn a fair living at what they do because to the strong unions.  I look at nurses and say isn't there job equally as important as teachers?  Them why is there compensation so minuscule when you compare the two of them.  Unions have not done a good job in the health care industry over overall the past 20 years.

Companies leaders need to be kept in check.  They are born to win at all costs.  If they can fuck the little guy to do it so be it.  People need to organize to keep the big boys in check.  There compensation should be equally calculated on profits of the company and living wages of the workers.  

JTG4eva! wrote

 

But here is the thing about the 1%, seriously.  Our founding fathers were the 1%.  Good old George was worth BILLIONS in today's dollars.  The captains of industry, the great industrialists that would grow the nation a century later, were the 1%.  Without the 1% there is no America.  You may not like that, and I agree it may not always be or seem fair, but we can't bemoan what got us where we are, and where it seems we choose to be, can we?
 

I agree.

How do you think our founding fathers would feel about people stomping on the American Flag(that shit is against the friggin law)....Good old George would've shot the dumb ass who did that. What would the answer to the question, "should we play the national anthem before all sporting events", or, "should we have our children recite the pledge of allegiance before the begging of  each school day"

My point being things are completely different now....sometimes I wish America would get er balls back

campgottagopee wrote

 

My point being things are completely different now....sometimes I wish America would get er balls back

What does that mean? I hear that kind of comment a lot, usually from the Fox Noise crowd.