N Vermont vs Tug Hill contest

Glade Runner wrote

No I don't believe NVT gets more than most of Colorado.  But, they are the closest in the east.  We've already established that a nws station at the base isn't a good indicator of snow on the mountain.  When the summit has a base of 48" and the base area has a snow base of 18", there is a major difference in the upper and lower areas of the mountain in terms of snowfall.  You've yet to acknowledge this as you base all of your arguments off of climate data and maps, when once again we've established (even Harvey pointed it out) that the peak areas of Jay are so small on a map they don't show up even in the pixels.  The best we can do is go off the reports.  If we believe they exaggerate, then we can adjust it. But, if they all exaggerate then doesn't it all equal out?  It's like once you realized you were wrong you changed the argument to "Mansfield gets more snow than Jay".  This was about the Tug Hill region.  But, also we are seeing that snowfall totals aren't the be all to great skiing.  Base depth and colder climate plays a huge role.

If you believe NVT DOES NOT get more snowfall than most colorado resorts than you can't believe their claim of 355 inch average which is equal to or greater than most colorado resorts.

Snow ridge doesn't exageratte. They match up with climate stations as does alta. Again not that much of a HUGE difference between base and mid elevation(proper place for snowfall measurement) over the course of an entire season. The base elevation station from the nws was reporting numbers BELOW 200 inches on NUMEROUS years. Check the climate station for yourself.

Yeah colder temps and base depth are great if you want to ski ice. Nothing compares to fresh show. We both know that.

 I love how mattchuck talks about intellectual superior, yet I'm the one throwing around precip maps/climate data and all he's got is a ski areas reporting. LMAO

Glade Runner wrote

What do you think it says about me btw?

You continue to argue with someone who will never listen to reason, never say anything funny or useful, and never form a coherent argument. What does that say about you?

I don't know, what would you say about someone shouting at a brick wall, thinking that maybe, someday, the brick wall will learn something?

mattchuck2 wrote

You continue to argue with someone who will never listen to reason, never say anything funny or useful, and never form a coherent argument. What does that say about you?

I don't know, what would you say about someone shouting at a brick wall, thinking that maybe, someday, the brick wall will learn something?

What does it say about you that you're also doing the exact same thing mattchuck?

The argument is very clear and coherent.

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

No I don't believe NVT gets more than most of Colorado.  But, they are the closest in the east.  We've already established that a nws station at the base isn't a good indicator of snow on the mountain.  When the summit has a base of 48" and the base area has a snow base of 18", there is a major difference in the upper and lower areas of the mountain in terms of snowfall.  You've yet to acknowledge this as you base all of your arguments off of climate data and maps, when once again we've established (even Harvey pointed it out) that the peak areas of Jay are so small on a map they don't show up even in the pixels.  The best we can do is go off the reports.  If we believe they exaggerate, then we can adjust it. But, if they all exaggerate then doesn't it all equal out?  It's like once you realized you were wrong you changed the argument to "Mansfield gets more snow than Jay".  This was about the Tug Hill region.  But, also we are seeing that snowfall totals aren't the be all to great skiing.  Base depth and colder climate plays a huge role.

If you believe NVT DOES NOT get more snowfall than most colorado resorts than you can't believe their claim of 355 inch average which is equal to or greater than most colorado resorts.

Snow ridge doesn't exageratte. They match up with climate stations as does alta. Again not that much of a HUGE difference between base and mid elevation(proper place for snowfall measurement) over the course of an entire season. The base elevation station from the nws was reporting numbers BELOW 200 inches on NUMEROUS years. Check the climate station for yourself.

Yeah colder temps and base depth are great if you want to ski ice. Nothing compares to fresh show. We both know that.

 I love how mattchuck talks about intellectual superior, yet I'm the one throwing around precip maps/climate data and all he's got is a ski areas reporting. LMAO

A lot of Colorado resorts at high elevation get an annual average around 500 inches, much more than Jay Peak.    How do you know Snow Ridge doesn't exaggerate?  I wouldn't think Snow Ridge would have any difference between base and summit when it is only 500 vertical.  You get that a lot at places over 2000 vertical.  Do you have any data to show what they were reporting?  NWS location and elevation?  Having a base also helps when you gets small amounts of snow here or there as it has something to stick to and accumulate to.  If there is no base and the ground isn't frozen most of that snow will never stack up.  So its ridiculous to say that those things don't matter.  There isn't a whole lot of ice when the temps are this high and you rarely come across ice in the woods or natural snow.  Did you check out that video of MRG?

Glade Runner wrote

A lot of Colorado resorts at high elevation get an annual average around 500 inches, much more than Jay Peak.    How do you know Snow Ridge doesn't exaggerate?  I wouldn't think Snow Ridge would have any difference between base and summit when it is only 500 vertical.  You get that a lot at places over 2000 vertical.  Do you have any data to show what they were reporting?  NWS location and elevation?  Having a base also helps when you gets small amounts of snow here or there as it has something to stick to and accumulate to.  If there is no base and the ground isn't frozen most of that snow will never stack up.  

Yes the mansfield and mt washington summits, both way under 300 inches. Washington is over 6000 feet and still can't crack 300 inches.

NWS stations as well as spotter reports right near snow ridge confirm snowfall(boonville)

No majority of Colorado resorts are under 355. ZERO are over 500.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Colorado_ski_resorts

In fact not a single resort gets over 500. You're thinking of Alta. Vast majority are under 355. Silverton and wolf creek are only ones that beat jay peak by a large margin. But even then it's only 120 inch difference between the two.

Yes I'll admit you are correct.  I must have been thinking it was Utah.  But, all this data you have and all you can do is reference Wikipedia?  The data I was referring to that you put in bold was the NWS stations at the base of Jay.  

Glade Runner wrote

Yes I'll admit you are correct.  I must have been thinking it was Utah.  But, all this data you have and all you can do is reference Wikipedia?  The data I was referring to that you put in bold was the NWS stations at the base of Jay.

Actually I've shown the nws data from colorado/utah climate stations already. They match up with ski area reporting unlike in NVT

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Jay+Peak,+Jay+Peak+Road,+Jay,+VT/Morrisville-Stowe+State+Airport,+2305+Laporte+Road,+Morristown,+VT+05661/@44.7427604,-72.8401169,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb60f3168439171:0x87be16e3a3066a73!2m2!1d-72.50454!2d44.93762!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb5957262ab950d:0x42fb3049ad1d43d9!2m2!1d-72.614122!2d44.536797?hl=en

Ok so the NWS station for Jay is located 38 miles from Jay Peak.  Elevation is 732 ft.

 http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Jay&state=VT&site=BTV&textField1=44.9475&textField2=-72.4375&e=0#.VJ2SAED7A

Jay Peak base elevation is 1843 ft.  And the mountain is 38 miles north.  Do you really think this station is a good representation of what Jay Peak gets?  Jay's summit is over 3100 ft higher than the station.  

I think you've been schooled.

I don't see why it is worth arguing how places blow up their snow totals.  The amount of snow that mountains can make is what really matters in the east.  Personally I'd be just fine if we got nothing but sunny bluebird days with temps around 28 all winter and temps in the teens at night for snowmaking and no natural snow at all.

Glade Runner wrote

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Jay+Peak,+Jay+Peak+Road,+Jay,+VT/Morrisville-Stowe+State+Airport,+2305+Laporte+Road,+Morristown,+VT+05661/@44.7427604,-72.8401169,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb60f3168439171:0x87be16e3a3066a73!2m2!1d-72.50454!2d44.93762!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb5957262ab950d:0x42fb3049ad1d43d9!2m2!1d-72.614122!2d44.536797?hl=en

Ok so the NWS station for Jay is located 38 miles from Jay Peak.  Elevation is 732 ft.

 http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Jay&state=VT&site=BTV&textField1=44.9475&textField2=-72.4375&e=0#.VJ2SAED7A

Jay Peak base elevation is 1843 ft.  And the mountain is 38 miles north.  Do you really think this station is a good representation of what Jay Peak gets?  Jay's summit is over 3100 ft higher than the station.

LMAO. THat's not the jay peak climate station GENIUS.
This is. At least when you say you've schooled someone....BE RIGHT. NOT DEAD WRONG. This is an example of the stupidty of the people I'm arguing with. My god. It's right at the base and regularly reports under 200 inches. Go year by year. Then you've got mansfield and mt washington summits to also compare. See people aren't actually even reading/looking at climate staions I've posted. Their emotions(of wanting big time wester powder which doesn't exists on the ec) BLINDS THEM to the reality. Trust me, you'd be getting way more powder days if they really got 355 inch AVERAGE.
Jay peak climate station
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCNDMS/stations/GHCND:USC00434189/detail

Glade Runner wrote

I think you've been schooled.

Oh yeah big time. LMFAO....

Then there would be no glades

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Jay+Peak,+Jay+Peak+Road,+Jay,+VT/Morrisville-Stowe+State+Airport,+2305+Laporte+Road,+Morristown,+VT+05661/@44.7427604,-72.8401169,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb60f3168439171:0x87be16e3a3066a73!2m2!1d-72.50454!2d44.93762!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb5957262ab950d:0x42fb3049ad1d43d9!2m2!1d-72.614122!2d44.536797?hl=en

Ok so the NWS station for Jay is located 38 miles from Jay Peak.  Elevation is 732 ft.

 http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Jay&state=VT&site=BTV&textField1=44.9475&textField2=-72.4375&e=0#.VJ2SAED7A

Jay Peak base elevation is 1843 ft.  And the mountain is 38 miles north.  Do you really think this station is a good representation of what Jay Peak gets?  Jay's summit is over 3100 ft higher than the station.

LMAO. THat's not the jay peak climate station GENIUS.
This is. At least when you say you've schooled someone....BE RIGHT. NOT DEAD WRONG. This is an example of the stupidty of the people I'm arguing with. My god. It's right at the base and regularly reports under 200 inches. Go year by year. Then you've got mansfield and mt washington summits to also compare. See people aren't actually even reading/looking at climate staions I've posted. Their emotions(of wanting big time wester powder which doesn't exists on the ec) BLINDS THEM to the reality. Trust me, you'd be getting way more powder days if they really got 355 inch AVERAGE.
Jay peak climate station
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCNDMS/stations/GHCND:USC00434189/detail

See this is why the forum is a good place to learn things.  I had been asking for details on the location of the Jay NWS but, you speed read all my posts and missed me asking it.  I posted my link which gave me those coordinates which I thought was the station.  Because I posted my link, you were able to dispute it.  If it is not the station and your link is the station it is at 560 meters when Jay's base is at 1843 feet.  It's still obvious much more snow occurs at 1843 ft than 560 m.  And the summit's snow base is still more than 2 and a half times the base.  There's definitely a lot more snow going on up there at both the summit and the base than at the station.  This is why when someone asks for something to back it up, we can go back and fact check it and figure these things out.  Of course Pow will withhold the information so he can tell you that you're an idiot later.  I never had an issue admitting when I'm wrong.  I seem to be the only one seriously interested in this topic without trying to be biased.  I'd also be getting a lot more powder days at Jay if it weren't over 5 hrs away.  But, I have done good seeing fresh powder on every single trip I've taken there.

Glade Runner wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Jay+Peak,+Jay+Peak+Road,+Jay,+VT/Morrisville-Stowe+State+Airport,+2305+Laporte+Road,+Morristown,+VT+05661/@44.7427604,-72.8401169,10z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb60f3168439171:0x87be16e3a3066a73!2m2!1d-72.50454!2d44.93762!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb5957262ab950d:0x42fb3049ad1d43d9!2m2!1d-72.614122!2d44.536797?hl=en

Ok so the NWS station for Jay is located 38 miles from Jay Peak.  Elevation is 732 ft.

 http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?CityName=Jay&state=VT&site=BTV&textField1=44.9475&textField2=-72.4375&e=0#.VJ2SAED7A

Jay Peak base elevation is 1843 ft.  And the mountain is 38 miles north.  Do you really think this station is a good representation of what Jay Peak gets?  Jay's summit is over 3100 ft higher than the station.

LMAO. THat's not the jay peak climate station GENIUS.
This is. At least when you say you've schooled someone....BE RIGHT. NOT DEAD WRONG. This is an example of the stupidty of the people I'm arguing with. My god. It's right at the base and regularly reports under 200 inches. Go year by year. Then you've got mansfield and mt washington summits to also compare. See people aren't actually even reading/looking at climate staions I've posted. Their emotions(of wanting big time wester powder which doesn't exists on the ec) BLINDS THEM to the reality. Trust me, you'd be getting way more powder days if they really got 355 inch AVERAGE.
Jay peak climate station
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/cdo-web/datasets/GHCNDMS/stations/GHCND:USC00434189/detail

See this is why the forum is a good place to learn things.  I had been asking for details on the location of the Jay NWS but, you speed read all my posts and missed me asking it.  I posted my link which gave me those coordinates which I thought was the station.  Because I posted my link, you were able to dispute it.  If it is not the station and your link is the station it is at 560 meters when Jay's base is at 1843 feet.  It's still obvious much more snow occurs at 1843 ft than 560 m.  And the summit's snow base is still more than 2 and a half times the base.  There's definitely a lot more snow going on up there at both the summit and the base than at the station.  This is why when someone asks for something to back it up, we can go back and fact check it and figure these things out.  Of course Pow will withhold the information so he can tell you that you're an idiot later.  I never had an issue admitting when I'm wrong.  I seem to be the only one seriously interested in this topic without trying to be biased.  I'd also be getting a lot more powder days at Jay if it weren't over 5 hrs away.  But, I have done good seeing fresh powder on every single trip I've taken there.

Glade, I ALREADY posted the link to that station on here. Please, do an indepth search on that site and you can learn about the climate of an area. There's a reason Burlington NWS released a snow map and didn't have anything over 300. It's because the data doesn't match that and they have data from a lot of areas. They're scientists. They're not going to simply listen to a ski area's claim. They're going to look at elevation, surrounding topography, precip, orientation to the winds, nearby climate stations and other things. If jay peaks climate station is reporting under 200 inches many years at BASE, mt mansfield summit reporting mid 200's average, Mt washington, highest point in the northeast with a TON of upslope effect under 300 inches and is staffed 24/7 with a weather crew, numerous hydrology maps clearly pointing to areas of high precip then you can come to the conclusion I've come to.

You seeing fresh pow everytime you go there doesn't mean a 355 inch average. You could justify a 500 inch average by saying that.

Yea after I posted the wrong one.  I had been asking you to post or repost it but, you speed read too much and ignore anything anyone says.

PowderAssassin wrote

reporting under 200 inches many years at BASE

Yes and we established the base was 18" as of last week and the summit base was 48".  2.6 times the amount at the summit than the base.  So according to 200 inches at the base that should be 500 at the summit!  A little high of course but, the snow at the base (1843 ft) should even be much higher than the NWS station being at 560 m.  Can you make an argument for why that low elevation should be used as weather data for 3858 ft or even 1843 ft? From my personal experience going to not only Jay but, Whiteface, Killington, Sugarbush, etc, there can be no snow at all all the way to the mountain and a matter of feet at the summit.  Especially when you are close to the rain/snow temp line but, on the snow side of things, deep snow can occur.

Glade Runner wrote

Yea after I posted the wrong one.  I had been asking you to post or repost it but, you speed read too much and ignore anything anyone says.

PowderAssassin wrote

reporting under 200 inches many years at BASE

Yes and we established the base was 18" as of last week and the summit base was 48".  2.6 times the amount at the summit than the base.  So according to 200 inches at the base that should be 500 at the summit!  A little high of course but, the snow at the base (1843 ft) should even be much higher than the NWS station being at 560 m.  Can you make an argument for why that low elevation should be used as weather data for 3858 ft or even 1843 ft? From my personal experience going to not only Jay but, Whiteface, Killington, Sugarbush, etc, there can be no snow at all all the way to the mountain and a matter of feet at the summit.  Especially when you are close to the rain/snow temp line but, on the snow side of things, deep snow can occur.

Because less MELTING takes place at the summit than at the base! OMG...common sense. Snow ridge has zero snow right on the ground because it's warmer than the summit of mansfield. Not because they got zero snow.

You didn't establish anything.

1) That's what the resort is reporting and is based on fake snow as well as real snow.
2) They could easily take that depth measurement in a drift.
3) They can't really tell on a packed down trail exactly how deep it is anyway unless you had a drill
4)Stowe is reporting a depth at summit of 24 inches(natural snow) 48 inches(man made) So did they get LESS THAN HALF the snowfall of jay peak so far this year? Using your logic jay peak has a base 0f 48 inches so it must have gotten twice the snowfall of stowe

A classic example of wind drifted snow would be tuckerman's at mt washington. All the snow gets blown in there. So it creates an illusion of more snow.

 Mt mansfield stake is 30 inches currently.

And you're skiing down the mountain so basically at jay, 1000 feet up is the true measurement. If you think you're going to go from an average of less than 200 to 355 outside of lake effect country then you can believe that.

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

Yea after I posted the wrong one.  I had been asking you to post or repost it but, you speed read too much and ignore anything anyone says.

PowderAssassin wrote

reporting under 200 inches many years at BASE

Yes and we established the base was 18" as of last week and the summit base was 48".  2.6 times the amount at the summit than the base.  So according to 200 inches at the base that should be 500 at the summit!  A little high of course but, the snow at the base (1843 ft) should even be much higher than the NWS station being at 560 m.  Can you make an argument for why that low elevation should be used as weather data for 3858 ft or even 1843 ft? From my personal experience going to not only Jay but, Whiteface, Killington, Sugarbush, etc, there can be no snow at all all the way to the mountain and a matter of feet at the summit.  Especially when you are close to the rain/snow temp line but, on the snow side of things, deep snow can occur.

Because less MELTING takes place at the summit than at the base! OMG...common sense. Snow ridge has zero snow right on the ground because it's warmer than the summit of mansfield. Not because they got zero snow.

You didn't establish anything.

1) That's what the resort is reporting and is based on fake snow as well as real snow.
2) They could easily take that depth measurement in a drift.
3) They can't really tell on a packed down trail exactly how deep it is anyway unless you had a drill
4)Stowe is reporting a depth at summit of 24 inches(natural snow) 48 inches(man made) So did they get LESS THAN HALF the snowfall of jay peak so far this year? Using your logic jay peak has a base 0f 48 inches so it must have gotten twice the snowfall of stowe

A classic example of wind drifted snow would be tuckerman's at mt washington. All the snow gets blown in there. So it creates an illusion of more snow.

 Mt mansfield stake is 30 inches currently.

And you're skiing down the mountain so basically at jay, 1000 feet up is the true measurement. If you think you're going to go from an average of less than 200 to 355 outside of lake effect country then you can believe that.

1.) Did you even see MRG snow report video I posted?  They have full coverage after this rain with 10% snowmaking capabilities.  Jay has woods with snow in them.  In case you don't know this: they don't make snow in the woods.
2.) They easily could take the measurement in a drift, or they could go for an average base depth area.
3.) I think they do have drills.
4.) Again speed reading and not paying attention to details.  That report of 48 inch base depth at the summit was last week.  Obviously they lost something to the warmth and rain.  
5.) 1000 feet up the mountain is 2843 ft.  That is the elevation you think from your own words would be a good place to measure snowfall.  That is a lot higher than 560m, which you have not acknowledged.  And you still refuse to acknowledge that a mountain with that elevation can receive significant more snowfall at the summit or even the middle of the mountain than at the weather station.
6.)  You also ignored all my other points that I made.  You also acted like I wouldn't know its colder at the summit.  When I've been at Jay I have seen 10 degrees difference from the base to the summit.  You've also taken other opportunities as usual to insult me rather than have a civil discussion.  I hope you feel more like a man now.  I'm headed up to Greek for some night spring skiing.  Have fun posting on the blog.

PowderAssassin wrote

And you're skiing down the mountain so basically at jay, 1000 feet up is the true measurement. If you think you're going to go from an average of less than 200 to 355 outside of lake effect country then you can believe that.

I'll let GR continue to school you, but VT is lake effect / upslope country. Mount Washington is not because a lot of that moisture is blocked, 6288 be damned.

Glade Runner wrote

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

Yea after I posted the wrong one.  I had been asking you to post or repost it but, you speed read too much and ignore anything anyone says.

PowderAssassin wrote

reporting under 200 inches many years at BASE

Yes and we established the base was 18" as of last week and the summit base was 48".  2.6 times the amount at the summit than the base.  So according to 200 inches at the base that should be 500 at the summit!  A little high of course but, the snow at the base (1843 ft) should even be much higher than the NWS station being at 560 m.  Can you make an argument for why that low elevation should be used as weather data for 3858 ft or even 1843 ft? From my personal experience going to not only Jay but, Whiteface, Killington, Sugarbush, etc, there can be no snow at all all the way to the mountain and a matter of feet at the summit.  Especially when you are close to the rain/snow temp line but, on the snow side of things, deep snow can occur.

Because less MELTING takes place at the summit than at the base! OMG...common sense. Snow ridge has zero snow right on the ground because it's warmer than the summit of mansfield. Not because they got zero snow.

You didn't establish anything.

1) That's what the resort is reporting and is based on fake snow as well as real snow.
2) They could easily take that depth measurement in a drift.
3) They can't really tell on a packed down trail exactly how deep it is anyway unless you had a drill
4)Stowe is reporting a depth at summit of 24 inches(natural snow) 48 inches(man made) So did they get LESS THAN HALF the snowfall of jay peak so far this year? Using your logic jay peak has a base 0f 48 inches so it must have gotten twice the snowfall of stowe

A classic example of wind drifted snow would be tuckerman's at mt washington. All the snow gets blown in there. So it creates an illusion of more snow.

 Mt mansfield stake is 30 inches currently.

And you're skiing down the mountain so basically at jay, 1000 feet up is the true measurement. If you think you're going to go from an average of less than 200 to 355 outside of lake effect country then you can believe that.

1.) Did you even see MRG snow report video I posted?  They have full coverage after this rain with 10% snowmaking capabilities.  Jay has woods with snow in them.  In case you don't know this: they don't make snow in the woods.
2.) They easily could take the measurement in a drift, or they could go for an average base depth area.
3.) I think they do have drills.
4.) Again speed reading and not paying attention to details.  That report of 48 inch base depth at the summit was last week.  Obviously they lost something to the warmth and rain.  
5.) 1000 feet up the mountain is 2843 ft.  That is the elevation you think from your own words would be a good place to measure snowfall.  That is a lot higher than 560m, which you have not acknowledged.  And you still refuse to acknowledge that a mountain with that elevation can receive significant more snowfall at the summit or even the middle of the mountain than at the weather station.
6.)  You also ignored all my other points that I made.  You also acted like I wouldn't know its colder at the summit.  When I've been at Jay I have seen 10 degrees difference from the base to the summit.  You've also taken other opportunities as usual to insult me rather than have a civil discussion.  I hope you feel more like a man now.  I'm headed up to Greek for some night spring skiing.  Have fun posting on the blog.

Bro...you're the one ATTACKING me telling me how "you're schooling" me(when if fact you were totally wrong. Quite hilarious I might add). So I was being completely civil with you.
Have fun at greek