Coronavirus

JTG4eva! wrote

Does the PPP program include stipulation that employees must be paid at their pre-CV19 salary/wage?

You know it didn't really say that specifically. I kind of assumed that was what they wanted and just plowed ahead.

I definitely wouldn't raise it, that seems like asking for trouble, since the number you could borrow was based on the pre-Covid payroll.

Lowering their pay would leave even more money on the table and increase the amount of interested owed by the company.

Harvey wrote

JTG4eva! wrote

Does the PPP program include stipulation that employees must be paid at their pre-CV19 salary/wage?

You know it didn't really say that specifically. I kind of assumed that was what they wanted and just plowed ahead.

I definitely wouldn't raise it, that seems like asking for trouble, since the number you could borrow was based on the pre-Covid payroll.

Lowering their pay would leave even more money on the table and increase the amount of interested owed by the company.

Did you consider a temporary raise?

Brownski wrote

Harvey wrote

JTG4eva! wrote

Does the PPP program include stipulation that employees must be paid at their pre-CV19 salary/wage?

You know it didn't really say that specifically. I kind of assumed that was what they wanted and just plowed ahead.

I definitely wouldn't raise it, that seems like asking for trouble, since the number you could borrow was based on the pre-Covid payroll.

Lowering their pay would leave even more money on the table and increase the amount of interested owed by the company.

Did you consider a temporary raise?

Harvey....if whatever formula they used considered pre-COVID payroll how did you end up with upwards of double what you anticipate needing?  Did the gub’ment or banks botch  the formula/calculations, or are you underestimating your needs, or do you have that many employees that don’t want to come back?

I’d imagine the fine print would prohibit raising wages, but if there is no pre-PPP pay restriction I’m sure some will do it.  Right or wrong, who’s to say.  With some companies missing out because all the funds were already distributed I’d feel bad giving raises (if I could under the rules), if the unused funds (when they go back) could go to some other deserving small business.  Then again, if returned funds would go into some nebulous gub’ment black hole that funds a Congressional pay raise or a few more smart bombs it might be better to spend all the money, benefitting your employees and putting the money into the economy, as intended.

JasonWx wrote

Harvey wrote

That is the program we applied for.  All the advice I got said "don't worry it won't run out, but even if it does they will add more."

As I mentioned somewhere else, the application process was a royal pita. I spent the last two weeks amassing the paperwork and trying to ensure we weren't submitting any false info.  Penalties for "knowingly" submitting false info are 5 years in prison and $250,000 fine.

The formula used was very specific and not really flexible. I wasn't sure I wanted to submit, and surely wanted less.  We won't be able to use what we applied for. I'm guessing we will use half of it.  We can return the unused amount after 8 weeks. We will pay interest on the unused amount, but the rate is super low (1%) so it won't be too much.

Anyway the simple answer is we got the money in our account late in the day yesterday.

We called each staff member and told them what was going on. Basically to stay within the rules we had to have them come back immediately. I was surprised and kind of bummed at some of the reactions I got.  A few were cranky to be coming off unemployment. This was after I'd called them a week ago asking if they wanted to be included in our loan request.

my friend has a med size law firm and applied and received the above money..his employees are pissed..saying that they made more money on unemployment..

it seems that everyone on unemployment is receiving additional 600 in full regardless of what they made..I was under the impression there 600 was suppose to get you close to your original salary not over it..

Lots of folks around here are making more on unemployment ever since the extra 600 kicked in. I'm sure those without the drive, the work ethic, will sit home for as long as they can.

Curious....are PPP finds only being distributed to “essential” businesses, or those that can accommodate work from home?  Would seem like a circular Government clusterf#%k to be giving small businesses money to put people back to work if they aren’t actually allowed to work.

The PPP program is good to keep employees on the job and paid their normal wages, but it also allows businesses to keep operating, if their customers are still paying.  If I had employees who didn’t come back once PPP was available, and help my business run while maintaining proper social distance, solely because they wanted a paid vacation courtesy of temporary unemployment......I’m not so sure their unemployment would be temporary.  If they don’t come back now would you offer them the opportunity to come back later?  I mean, if you don’t want to be here, do I really want you here?

Just read where our NY Pause has been extended until May 15th.

If it wasn't for turkey season I'd go crazy.

I think a lot like you do on this matter.  If you'd rather be on unemployment... WTF.

The formula was basically:

Last years payroll ÷ 12 months = average monthly payroll then multiple by 2.5.

The idea was to give you payroll for 8 weeks, plus another half a month worth to pay rent and utilities.

Our overhead is almost all salaries - maybe 75% or even 80%.

The issue for us is, in part, we were a bigger company at the beginning of last year.  Last year had a mediocre year (break even). We went from 20 employees to 15 and we cut owner pay by 20%. So our payroll is a lot lower this year. We might not leave half the money on the table, that is just a wild ass guess.

I could have stepped outside the program's formula I suppose, but then all our backup documentation wouldn't match our amount request.

I didn't know if this would get our application kicked out. I suspected the 350 billion would be gone quick, and I wanted our application to sail through, which it did.

In addition, what if they extend the program beyond 8 weeks?  If so maybe I could use the extra for more weeks vs sending it back.  I'd rather not have to submit another application.

There were a lot of square pegs in round holes with this thing. The advice I got was, go by the rules, take the money, and figure it out later. Everyone is assuming there will be more clarity after a while.

Brownski wrote

Did you consider a temporary raise?

No way.

That is clearly against the spirit of this law. There is no upside for me and huge downside.  

The penalties for fraud on this thing are brutal, and what do stand I gain from that?  I "satisfy" a few employees who'd rather be on unemployment?

Yeah, that seems like the best way to approach it.  Are there any audit or reporting requirements regarding what you used, or is the “give back what you don’t use” an on your honor thing?

Those kinds of questions are up my alley, as I deal primarily with Government funding in our business, accounting for how those Government funds are spent, and related audits.

You don't need them if they'd rather be on unemployment. I'd be very surprised if any of my guys would say that. If they do I'll help them pack their desks up. We don't need or want people with that attitude.

campgottagopee wrote

We don't need or want people with that attitude.

+350 billion

So what do you think of the program as to meeting your needs?

JTG4eva! wrote

Yeah, that seems like the best way to approach it.  Are there any audit or reporting requirements regarding what you used, or is the “give back what you don’t use” an on your honor thing?

Those kinds of questions are up my alley, as I deal primarily with Government funding in our business, accounting for how those Government funds are spent, and related audits.

No there is backup required when it is all done. I'm not sure what form it will take but I had to sign something that said I agreed to provide as much back up as they need or request.

Hopefully won't be to much work. 2 months of payroll, utilities, rent.

Ok. I'll tell you what I assume is happening.  You are getting your payroll covered along with your mortgage and utilities. You figured out you jumped the gun laying people off, the program would have funded the ladies paycheck qualified to do it. Now you have to bring these people back and anyone making less than 60k doesn't want to come. They are taking home more money sitting home now.
You are now getting the majority of you fte covered so anything they bring in revenue wise for 8 weeks is profit that goes to the owners.  

You have no idea what you are talking about.

This was a big deal to me, emotional. Especially laying off half our people. It felt good to get it out and share it, but I realize it was a mistake. I should have known better.

I’m glad you shared Harvey.  In the context of this whole crisis, better understanding how it is impacting other businesses and other people helps give me a better perspective on this whole thing.  As you said, seeing a business and livelihood that you’ve put so much into be so profoundly affected by this crisis is emotional.  The least you deserve is a little cathartic release here at your side passion, where you’ve created a somewhat unique corner of the interweb.  So don’t let some seemingly insensitive comments make you question yourself.  I doubt such comments were intended to be as critical as they seemed.

This episode is fascinating from a Government supporting business perspective, for someone who isn’t attached emotionally.  So many moving parts and implications.  Theoretically, I suppose if the PPP covers salary (for all your employees, not just the ones you laid off), mortgage and utilities over 8 weeks, and you still have any revenue coming in (now with no apparent expenses to cover), then that revenue might look like gravy.  That’s probably not the reality and things are never as simple as they seem.  The cost to rebuild your business and recover lost revenue coming out of this crisis will likely be significant, and PPP won’t over that....and even if there is some gravy, it’s just gravy on a shit sandwich, so I wouldn’t begrudge anyone suffering through this episode using the program.

I’ve been fortunate to never have needed to collect unemployment, so TJs comment that those making under $60k are making more to sit at home is equally eye opening to me.  I still find it hard to respect anyone who’d rather sit at home and do nothing while drawing their usual pay, even a little more, off the public teet.  Not only does it seem to me to show poor judgement and values, but the unemployment teet does run dry at some point, and what then?  I suppose now I’ll get shit on by someone for thinking that way.

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I have terrible guilt not working and collecting..

I feel awful for the people that are working in super markets and fast food etc , knowing that they would probably double their salaries by being laid off..

JasonWx wrote

I feel awful for the people that are working in super markets and fast food etc , knowing that they would probably double their salaries by being laid off..

Maybe (and I'm just thinking wildly out of the box here), the people who do this work (as well as hospital workers, garbagemen, mail carriers, etc.) should be paid more?

JasonWx wrote

I have terrible guilt not working and collecting..

I feel awful for the people that are working in super markets and fast food etc , knowing that they would probably double their salaries by being laid off..

Same here bro