Coronavirus

trackbiker wrote

I know several people who started out at the bottom of the barrel and due to their hard work and willingness to "go the extra mile" instead of the just doing the absolute minimum, worked their way up to management positions in the businesses they work for. Granted, the business also has to show an appreciation for their work and attitude or they will, and should, move on to somewhere that does.

Yep. If this pandemic is the catalyst that bankrupts some businesses that treat their employees like shit, it would be a nice positive that comes out of a garbage situation.

Harvey wrote

Median household income in the US is somewhere around 65k.  That means mom and dad, if there are two, are each making a little more than $15 an hour. If 2 kids, that has got to be extremely tough.

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JTG4eva! wrote

I’m glad you shared Harvey.

Thanks for this response.

The idea that I jumped the gun on the layoff, I'm not buying it. We lost more than 60% of our projected 2Q revenue in one week in March. We had (still have) no idea how much (if any) of our remaining projections will hold. One of our customers that is still included in our numbers laid off 1100 out of 1300 last week.  That's just one story. It's only reasonable to assume that more budget cuts could be coming.

Was I supposed to assume the government bailout was in the bag before I had submitted the application? As of last Friday my bank wasn't even setup to process my application. As of now all the PPP money is gone and congress is fighting over the next step.  I worked on that application straight from the moment I could, and it looks like I just got in under the wire.  If you were projecting a $150k loss over the next three months, and the collateral against that loss was your house, would you just ride it out, and pay people who have no work?

I have been with this company for 35 years.  There have been 4 existential threats in that time. The first one was "our fault" the others, were 9/11, 2008 and Covid. I put "our fault" in quotes because I wasn't an owner at that time. I was at the bottom, delivering packages for $5 an hour.  

That first crisis: We expanded into a new office in California. Our biggest client insisted that if we wanted to continue to work for them we needed a local office to serve them.  They ended our contract soon after we made the commitments (lease, new hires etc).  Instead of letting all the new hires go, we plowed ahead determined to make it work. We paid people without the revenue to justify it and it cost us dearly. It took us a decade to dig out of that hole.  

I vowed that if I was ever in charge, I would never take those kind of risks.  Personally and professionally I don't believe in spending money I don't have.

Our company has struggled for years. There are structural reasons for this, our business has changed. For one thing digital marketing is just less profitable, we used to get markups on printing.  No one prints anything anymore. And we spent a lot buying out the previous owners.  But that is all blah blah.  My partner and are I responsible for sales and profitability.  It's all on us. I take that responsibility, I've cut my own pay to the point where I have two employees who make more than I do.

We do everything we can to be a decent company. We are really flexible with parents with kids, sick time, we pay a lot for our employees health insurance.  We bought a furnace for an employee last winter when hers broke down, and she had nothing in savings.

The PPP is covering most of our payroll for 8 of 52 pay periods this year. Over those 8 weeks, if our revenue projections hold, we will be profitable for that 8-week period.  The idea that I will pocket that "profit" or that I am somehow working the system really set me off. If we do make a profit in the next two months we're saving it for 3rd and 4th quarter. Our clients (all in travel) are in huge financial shit right now and they are paying us very slowly. We are trying to work with them so we can all survive.

Last thing: I won't get into WHAT exactly is a fair wage or what people should be paid. I do think unemployment should be 20% (?) lower than your regular pay. Enough so that people who don't actually want to work, still get some advantage from working.

In our defense, before we submitted our PPP application we asked our employees who wanted to come back and they all said yes.  Maybe they didn't understand that unemployment would be higher than normal. I certainly didn't know it. But that is nothing that I did to fuck with them.  When we called one employee we could hear her husband in the background screaming "fuck those assholes, they are just fucking with us, screwing us out of our unemployment."  WTF.

I guess I am truly an idiot, I just did it again.

If it makes you feel any better, I understand exactly where you’re coming from. It’s easy to throw stones but none of the rest of this is easy. It probably doesn’t help but I think the criticisms and complaints, both from your employees and on here, are born of ignorance and myopia rather then meanness. To me it’s clear that you’re trying to do the best thing for everybody over the long term. I applaud that.

campgottagopee wrote

JasonWx wrote

I have terrible guilt not working and collecting..

I feel awful for the people that are working in super markets and fast food etc , knowing that they would probably double their salaries by being laid off..

Same here bro

I feel guilty for being as bummed and out of sorts as I am, even though I’m still working. Compared to the underpaid truly essential jobs at grocery stores, gas stations, ERs etc... I have it pretty good. Even compared to the operational employees at my company, I am sitting pretty. We have TONS of drivers and warehouse workers calling in sick and 1 guy passed the other day. I don’t know that it was covid - obviously privacy laws prevent us from knowing- but it’s a pretty good bet. Being stationary when I’m used to being on the road and being the point of contact for all my customers who resent us not being able to make deliveries on time is no picnic but at least I’m earning money still.

Nope, no BS (Britney Spears) Harvey!


*** opens package of troll food ***

That said, I kinda hope my hairdresser (yes, I said hairdresser ) applied for PPP, so that they are sitting around waiting to coif my doo when the Coronawalls come down!

*** suck on that morsel, trolls ***

Harvey wrote

  When we called one employee we could hear her husband in the background screaming "fuck those assholes, they are just fucking with us, screwing us out of our unemployment."  WTF.

Max unemployment in NY is like $500/week. Add $600/week, and now you're at $1100 a week ($57,000/year annualized).

If you were paying this woman less than that, then her husband might be right, in the short term (if she made much less than that amount before, the extra $600 means even more to them, percentage wise).

In the long term, the family has to weigh whether it's worth it to burn the bridge or not. Or at least consider whether their actions would burn the bridge. I think if I was the business owner, I wouldn't blame people for taking more money & some time off (especially if they had health concerns/family concerns/etc.), especially if I didn't have enough work for them to do. I would definitely remember the people who came back to help me with the things I needed, though. But I'd probably ask them about finances to make sure they weren't hurting themselves too much.

At some point, you might have to consider whether it's worth it to hire her back or to spend a bunch of time & effort training someone new. Again, I don't own the business, but I'd probably not hold this against her (especially because it seems like her husband is the real agitator)

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Harvey wrote

  When we called one employee we could hear her husband in the background screaming "fuck those assholes, they are just fucking with us, screwing us out of our unemployment."  WTF.

At some point, you might have to consider whether it's worth it to hire her back or to spend a bunch of time & effort training someone new. Again, I don't own the business, but I'd probably not hold this against her (especially because it seems like her husband is the real agitator)

 I thought the same thing based on what the husband said in the background. I would take into consideration her performance prior to the pandemic. She's got to live with the man and would likely face some sort of grief from him if she went back for less total dollars.

NOW you want to talk in hypotheticals...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wait, what?  

‘Take the money and run, leave your employer in the lurch, then move on to the next low wage job.....there’s plenty of “opportunity” out there for your kind.’  

That was.....something, give that man a prize!!!

No wonder the only solutions in your world are silver spoons and helicopter drops! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry Harvey.  I’m not doing well on cutting back on ANY of my bad habits.  I have been trying, though...

Labor is a market just like every other market.

If you're okay where you are, fine.

If you believe your value as an employee is higher than your compensation, you can try to get better compensation on the open market.

These don't seem like complicated ideas, but apparently they are to you.

Isn’t unemployment only for people that lose their job? If you are laid off/furloughed and decline to come back when called, isn’t that the same as quitting voluntarily? I don’t think you legally qualify for unemployment under those circumstances.

Brownski wrote

Isn’t unemployment only for people that lose their job? If you are laid off/furloughed and decline to come back when called, isn’t that the same as quitting voluntarily? I don’t think you legally qualify for unemployment under those circumstances.

Fact. I think this is what pissed people off.

I didn't realize is was 600 a week I thought it was an extra 600 a month. That's a lot of money. No one in our company makes 500 a week, even with a 20% pay cut. Not even close. FYI with current salary structure I have 2 employees who make more than me.

Important to note that this was not all employees, 2 or 3 out of 8 total.

Usually true, but I heard this bill (temporarily?) allows you to apply for unemployment even if you quit.

If true, we're all just sitting around hoping that low paid healthcare workers & grocery store workers don't find out about that stipulation.

I would make more on unemployment plus the $600 a week.  I would rather work.  Every day that I am employed is a gift.  I can see Cornell furloughing staff for the summer.  When my son was wondering about possibly being furloughed, he talked with his dad to see if he could work for him,  His dad said my son could make more money by going on unemployment instead of working for my ex.  My son would rather work.  We are out there, hanging on every day.

Someone on this forum posted a while back that they would be taking a $10K pay cut.  Wahhh, sniff, boohoo, and all that.  Sucks to be you, whoever you are.  I don't remember, and don't care.

Meanwhile, I realized how very privileged I am. I went to the store today.  They had toilet paper, but not my favorite brand.  If the biggest issue in my life is not getting my favorite brand of toilet paper, than I think that things are pretty good.

My heart aches for those who have to make the really hard decisions about their employees, for those who are trying to work and home school their kids at the same time, and for those who have to go to work and expose themselves daily.

Stay safe and we will get through this, crappy toilet paper and all.  :p

WP

wonderpony wrote

I would make more on unemployment plus the $600 a week.

Me too except that I'm pretty sure I can't get unemployment as an owner.

I wonder how long the $600 will last.

wonderpony wrote

I would make more on unemployment plus the $600 a week.  I would rather work.  Every day that I am employed is a gift

Sounds like you enjoy your job. Consider that not everyone does.

And "do tasks for an employer" is only one way to "work". For instance, your son could take unemployment and then also work every day (mow lawns for people, flip a house, play online poker, record some music, whatever).

Seems like a lot of people on this board know how to work, but don't know how to hustle.

Time to go back to that landlord thread. Hustlers over there.

Harvey wrote

l.

I wonder how long the $600 will last.

July 31st I think, unless they extend it.

trackbiker wrote

MC2 5678F589 wrote

Harvey wrote

  When we called one employee we could hear her husband in the background screaming "fuck those assholes, they are just fucking with us, screwing us out of our unemployment."  WTF.

At some point, you might have to consider whether it's worth it to hire her back or to spend a bunch of time & effort training someone new. Again, I don't own the business, but I'd probably not hold this against her (especially because it seems like her husband is the real agitator)

 I thought the same thing based on what the husband said in the background. I would take into consideration her performance prior to the pandemic. She's got to live with the man and would likely face some sort of grief from him if she went back for less total dollars.

I suppose it depends on Harvey’s needs, and how he approached his employees with the opportunity the PPP provided.  If Harvey told them...’hey, our work is down and I don’t really need you, but I can pay your salary now if you want to come back.  If you don’t want to I understand and I’ll reach out to you when the we emerge from this crisis.’....that’s one thing.  But if he needs them, and they can work remotely, and they say no?  F’ them.  Sure, don’t bite off your nose to spite your face if taking them back later is more convenient for you....but that’s not the kind of employee I’d want around unless I had no other viable choice.

But, there are a lot of very MeCentric types out there, I s’pose!

JTG4eva! wrote

  If Harvey told them...’hey, our work is down and I don’t really need you, but I can pay your salary now if you want to come back.  If you don’t want to I understand and I’ll reach out to you when the we emerge from this crisis.’....that’s one thing.  But if he needs them, and they can work remotely, and they say no?  F’ them.  Sure, don’t bite off your nose to spite your face if taking them back later is more convenient for you....but that’s not the kind of employee I’d want around unless I had no other viable choice.

I don't know what Harv said to his employees, but what he told us was:

Harvey wrote

For the business it's a wash, I think. Lots of extra work for the owners.  We don't really have the work for the staff we have. I like running a company where the amount of work matches the staff. People without enough to do cause drama.

I don't blame people for making economic decisions in their best interest. Harv's company certainly made a decision in its best interest when it laid these people off (regardless of his reasons for doing it). I'm not sure why we're blaming these people for acting the same way.

I guess it's boss mentality vs. worker mentality. JTG and Harv and wonderpony think these people should be grateful to have a job in the first place. The workers might be questioning whether a business that drops the axe so quickly is such a great place to work and might be willing to try their luck in the labor market when their unemployment runs out.

MC, have you ever worked as a staff member, underneath faculty?  I am guessing not.  In the Cornell food chain, I am the mold on the crumbs that the students feed off of. But... There are are some students that make it all worth while.  I still would rather work than sit on my ass.

My son has a degree in construction management from ESF. He is not too proud to return to doing turnovers, if that makes any sense to you.  He has just been assigned to NJ.  I think I am going to throw up.

Hustler your ass on over.  I am sure you will be happy there.  At least most of the contractors I know wear masks when they are doing actual construction.

Just out of random curiosity, What do yo you do to "hustle" your money?

WP