Greek Peak Conditions

It goes deeper than management, the weather has sucked for 5+ years - that's why I haven't gotten season passes... I go for the natural snow, unfortunately there's no way they can play catch up to the pokeys and skills on the snowmaking game. FWIW it seems like the pocono areas are all having lift challenges as well. That leaves elk, go spend $900 there ? elk schmelk, unless tunk is bumped i'd be bored to tears

No kidding. They also fluctuate yr over yr.

I was hoping you would give us an example of the infrastructure crumbling faster than the repairs. Key word there is "repairs", at least now we're fixing stuff. I remember, not all that long ago, when repairs weren't ever made.

Current CNY weather is what the Pocono's faced decades ago. In terms of Elk, if I had a choice between Elk and Greek Peak, I'd choose Greek Peak heads and tails over Elk. Elk is crowded, their season is short, parking stinks, real estate is an outdated Swiss themed village, and the trails are all fairly similar. Yes, people like Elk, and they deliver a descent product. It's just not my cup of tea.

campgottagopee wrote

No kidding. They also fluctuate yr over yr.

I was hoping you would give us an example of the infrastructure crumbling faster than the repairs. Key word there is "repairs", at least now we're fixing stuff. I remember, not all that long ago, when repairs weren't ever made.

They have had issues with nearly all of their lifts this year. Rollbacks of 10+ feet are not good--especially when you are ready to load the lift and a chairs comes flying backwards at you. Safety is not something to cut corners with.

Rj1972 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

No kidding. They also fluctuate yr over yr.

I was hoping you would give us an example of the infrastructure crumbling faster than the repairs. Key word there is "repairs", at least now we're fixing stuff. I remember, not all that long ago, when repairs weren't ever made.

They have had issues with nearly all of their lifts this year. Rollbacks of 10+ feet are not good--especially when you are ready to load the lift and a chairs comes flying backwards at you. Safety is not something to cut corners with.

Mechanical stuff breaks --- it happens all over the industry, and it's nothing new.

campgottagopee wrote

Mechanical stuff breaks --- it happens all over the industry, and it's nothing new.

That is very true, but this has been an extremely challenging year for Greek Peak. I've never seen so many lift issues during one season. The lifts are shot. Yes, they can be re-built, but enough is enough.

They can't even keep the tree branches trimmed so that you don't snag your poles in them on the lift ride up. This is basic maintenance.

I only want to see the best for the place, and get so darn frustrated at times.

John biting off more than He can chew? Why would you say that? Why would a bankruptcy judge award the sale to Marc and John if that was the case? Why didn't others outbid the two of them or the State step in and purchase it outright?  At the time of the purchase, the two of them only wanted the mountain side and nothing to do with the Hotel, water park or condos. The courts refused to split the two entities up at that time, which now they operate underneath one name.  What you fail to see is what it has become today, a year round resort catering to multiple groups through out the year. Has the season pass sales declined over the past few years, absolutely. Has the day pass purchases increased, rentals increased, school programs increased and their market expanded, absolutely. Now let's compare what Peter has done at two other"local" mountains not 90 minutes away. Same deal local business man who purchased two mountains, how many upgrades has He done since the time he acquired the two of them? Will Greek have"spring conditions" today, we will see! What about Peters mountain, both closed today! By the end of this week, Greek will almost have 30 more ski days, then 2 mountains less than 30 minutes away. Why is that, continuous upgrades that costs millions that you fail to recognize. All the electric, water mains, pump houses, lighting, air lines, snow guns and groomers have had to be upgraded.
  Yes season pass sales use to be the bread and butter for"off season" upgrades. Yet you continue to mention number of sales, not revenue generated. Greek Peak is a year round resort these days, which in return employs a huge number of employees compared to 2013. Has John concentrated on a number of different avenues and ideas to remain profitable through out the year, absolutely. Besides Cortland State and the hospital, Greek Peak is the number one employer in the county.  Has the state stepped forward and offered 8 million for lift upgrades like some other resorts in the state? Has John delivered a better product mountain side compared to 2014? Has John delivered a better overall product to the year round guests? Does the lift issues have to be addressed, absolutely. Go ahead and take a look at at all the mountains in NYS. If you scroll through the list John is the biggest mountain owner in square acreage as a sole proprietor. Upgrades take time, his pockets aren't being stuffed by NYS. Safety is important and so is smart business solutions, So do you believe John should sell out and let another take over the operation seeing it's too much for him to chew?

BlueBirdy wrote

John biting off more than He can chew? Why would you say that? Why would a bankruptcy judge award the sale to Marc and John if that was the case? Why didn't others outbid the two of them or the State step in and purchase it outright?  At the time of the purchase, the two of them only wanted the mountain side and nothing to do with the Hotel, water park or condos. The courts refused to split the two entities up at that time, which now they operate underneath one name.  What you fail to see is what it has become today, a year round resort catering to multiple groups through out the year. Has the season pass sales declined over the past few years, absolutely. Has the day pass purchases increased, rentals increased, school programs increased and their market expanded, absolutely. Now let's compare what Peter has done at two other"local" mountains not 90 minutes away. Same deal local business man who purchased two mountains, how many upgrades has He done since the time he acquired the two of them? Will Greek have"spring conditions" today, we will see! What about Peters mountain, both closed today! By the end of this week, Greek will almost have 30 more ski days, then 2 mountains less than 30 minutes away. Why is that, continuous upgrades that costs millions that you fail to recognize. All the electric, water mains, pump houses, lighting, air lines, snow guns and groomers have had to be upgraded.
  Yes season pass sales use to be the bread and butter for"off season" upgrades. Yet you continue to mention number of sales, not revenue generated. Greek Peak is a year round resort these days, which in return employs a huge number of employees compared to 2013. Has John concentrated on a number of different avenues and ideas to remain profitable through out the year, absolutely. Besides Cortland State and the hospital, Greek Peak is the number one employer in the county.  Has the state stepped forward and offered 8 million for lift upgrades like some other resorts in the state? Has John delivered a better product mountain side compared to 2014? Has John delivered a better overall product to the year round guests? Does the lift issues have to be addressed, absolutely. Go ahead and take a look at at all the mountains in NYS. If you scroll through the list John is the biggest mountain owner in square acreage as a sole proprietor. Upgrades take time, his pockets aren't being stuffed by NYS. Safety is important and so is smart business solutions, So do you believe John should sell out and let another take over the operation seeing it's too much for him to chew?

FKNA!!!

You talk about a mic drop !!!!!!

BlueBirdy wrote

So do you believe John should sell out and let another take over the operation seeing it's too much for him to chew?

I'm not saying that John rested on his laurels, but did he really think he wasn't going to have to invest heavily upfront, considering he only paid $7.5M for the place? As I said previously, he basically purchased land for that amount of money, and now needs to build a ski area. He got very lucky with the two insurance claims that helped rebuild pump houses, the base area, and divert funds to on-mountain projects by not utilizing all of the insurance money for the intended purpose.

He can thank the prior owners for the place being a year round resort. I was not willing to dump the amount of money into the place that our consultants estimated that it would take under the most conservative model. Keep in mind that nearly everything needs to be replaced. To truly turn the place around, and increase skier visits, which is what my goal would have been, I would have needed to invest very heavily upfront, and take a multi-year loss. At that juncture in my life, I didn't need another major project.

Also, John and Marc were not the highest bidders. However, they were local, which is what the bankruptcy court liked.

Do I think John should sell???  That's not for me to say.

So John and Marc have bigger balls than you. Got it.

We can thank previous owner for conning someone into loaning him 50 mil for something that should never have been built. Nice job, something to be proud of.

campgottagopee wrote

So John and Marc have bigger balls than you. Got it.

You got that right! My ego is not as big as it once was.  I also believe John and Marc made an emotional purchase. Marc wanted out of the deal for quite some time.

In all seriousness, I wouldn’t have been happy with Greek Peak, as I would have wanted to position it as a premier resort to return it to its glory days. I also looked at adding additional off season amenities, including a golf course.

In terms of HLL, without it, John wouldn’t have been able to have a fire sale on the fractional ownership units in order to generate revenue for on-mountain improvements. Remember, they sold over 100 timeshares during their first year of ownership.

A buddy just called me to say that Greek Peaks storage facility on Page Green Road caught fire sometime this afternoon. I guess they were due for another insurance claim. It’s been awhile since they burned down the chair 4 pump house.

Long and short of it: Greek is mostly a great place.  I'm not skiing there until the lifts are fixed.  Especially fixing getting guests organized for lift loading (ie until the Management Doesn't Care impression leaves).  

Surprised they didn’t advertise a bonfire with $18 s’mores, a clown,a penguin, $20 parking, discounts on next years pass, arcade credits, a free lift evacuation, trip to waterfall spa, a cold buffet, and hotel room with no hot water.

I'm glad Marc and John ended up with it. You sound like a real drag.

Your buddy is correct, total loss. At least their premiums are paid up = new building

campgottagopee wrote

I'm glad Marc and John ended up with it. You sound like a real drag.

Your buddy is correct, total loss. At least their premiums are paid up = new building

HaHa!!  Yeah, I can be a bit of a bore; however, I do know how to manage capital, develop projects, and employ and retain top talent. You would not have been disappointed.

I guess it was about time for another insurance claim. Pretty soon they will not have an insurance provider.

Big talker. Could have should have would have sucks.  This guy is making a go of it and it appears he is doing a decent job. Probably not as good as your group would have but you couldn't get the deal... Even though you offered more. Sour grapes dude. Keep going please, you are entertaining.

RJ;
Now I get it. Sounds like you are critical of Greek b/c you seriously think that you could run it better and you have unfulfilled dreams of doing so.  

Have you ever run a ski resort or a 'recreational" business that employs between 100 and 500 people?  I know a few who have, and its a whole lot of hard work and 24 hour days.  

As for me, I've no doubt that the surest way to make a small fortune with a ski resort, is to start with a large fortune.....

campgottagopee wrote

Your buddy is correct, total loss. At least their premiums are paid up = new building

Greek Peak's improvement plan, wait for natural disasters, and / or burn things to the ground to scam their insurer, sounds sustainable to me. Now if we could just get them to set most of their lifts ablaze.

Rj1972 wrote

 You would not have been disappointed.

I'm not disappointed now, I'm actually impressed with what they are doing. Somehow I'm supposed to believe that you would be doing better? Doing more? Nah, I ain't buying that. You come off as a sore loser with your constant armchair quarterbacking.