Lift Ticket Prices for 14-15

Pure capitalism/free market doesn't exist. All business rely on publicly financed infrastructure to operate.

The rich didn't pay for Gore's new lift. Gore's infrastructure is paid for by taxpayers which represent a full cross section of NYers. Some rich included but by definition rich are a small percentage of the total. Taxpayers also own/subsidize the land that Gore uses at low/no cost.

I dispute the idea that lower income people ski at lift served resorts.  The median household income in the US is around $54000 for a family of 3.8 people.  I'd be surprised to see too many families of 4 at ski mountains with income below that number, locals excepted.

How do you define rich? I believe 85k per year per household (4 people) is upper 20% in the US.

My God, if you are not a dick already, don't fret.

I hate to say it, but I agree with PA here.

There isn't just ONE market for skiers. As with everything else, there is no shortage of businesses that cater to the "Haves." That's why there's a concrete moat and mostly empty seats behind home plate at the new Yankee Stadium. If the "Have-nots" can even afford to go to a Yankees game, they sit in the nosebleed seats.

What's missing here is awareness of the difference between macroeconomics and microeconomics. And nuance. Homeowners in Ridgewood, NJ pay more in property taxes than most people in the ADK's make in a year. Do you have any idea how destitute Essex County would be without the Olympic venues in Lake Placid? Despite their proximity, do you think that Sugarbush and Mad River Glen are aimed at the same market? Does Gore aim at the same market as Stratton or Stowe? Of course not.

Generalizations are always wrong . . . except for the one I just made

Harvey wrote

Pure capitalism/free market doesn't exist. All business rely on publicly financed infrastructure to operate.

Absolutely true.  We have crony capitalism/welfare state.

Harvey wrote

I dispute the idea that lower income people ski at lift served resorts.  

Generally true, with exceptions that probably don't count.  I grew up on welfare; the only time I skied was when my scout troop traveled up from Queens and did our winter overnight at Sanita Hills camp in Dutchess County.  We would ski at Big Birch, which is now known as Thunder Ridge.

Harvey wrote

How do you define rich? I believe 85k per year per household (4 people) is upper 20% in the US.

That is a difficult question.  Rich in terms of income, rich in terms of wealth, rich relative to others in your geographic area, rich relative to others in your income cohort . . .

Here is a great link (be sure to read the update as well):

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

Petronio

PowderAssassin wrote

Petronio wrote

Harvey wrote

Alta and Inflation: they used to say money "doubles every ten years."  If true:

1978 - $8
1988 - $16
1998 - $32
2008 - $64
2018 - $128

I think that was said about investing, also know as the Rule of 72.  If your investment rate (e.g., an interest rate on compounded savings account) is 7%, your savings will double in 10 years.  If your interest rate is 9%, it will double in 8 years.

The rise in prices has to be looked at in terms of currency inflation (i.e., how many of yesterday's dollars do I need to buy the same good or services today) as well as any real increase in prices (whether due to additional costs or increased market power of the seller).

I found a website that has historical Killington prices back to 1996:

http://snowdaze.com/killington-historical-snowfall

  In 1996 a weekend day lift ticket cost $49.  For the current season, a Killington weekend/peak ticket costs $92.  That is almost double in absolute dollars.  But in constant 1996 dollars, it is only about 24% higher.  (Use the US BLS calculator to determine what $92 in 2014 would buy in 1996:

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)

So current peak prices at Killington are as if they raised the $49 price in 1996 to $61.  A better sense (since we all have a better sense of the dollar value today), if they raised last year's peak daily lift ticket price of $89 to $110 for this season.  

"Only about 24% higher" is still substantially more expensive, of course.  Harv, I think you are correct in that there are greater COGS for the ski hills today -- it costs them more to produce their product and to compete effectively.  I also think someone mentioned the demise of local hills; that probably plays a part as well.

Petronio

<math edited>

Wages of low income earners hasn't even kept up with inflation while cost of rent in most areas has greatly exceeded inflation. I still can't figure out why a pro baseball player makes 30 million a year while a nyc nurse makes 50k after taxes. Just another example of the "free market" at work.

One of the reasons is costs ski areas more to offer their product is that they have decided to market towards the rich and forget everyone else. So they need to add all kinds of luxuries for that market. Mt snow just added a 6 pack bubble lift that costs over 10 million! The people their marketing to would rather pay an extra 10 bucks for a lift ticket and have a bubble lift then pay 10 less and not have one. Those aren't exact figures, but you get my point. The customers pay for that fancy lift obviously. What was wrong with mt snow's lifts? Nothing, but a 6 pack bubble is pampering. Look at the hermitage club as an example of extreme pampering. They could have easily put one lift to the top and relied on mostly natural snow and charged a fraction of what mt snow charges if it's run correctly. Going to get rich? No, but make a profit for sure if it's run correctly. Look at snow ridge as an example of a ski area that can offer affordable lift tickets still. Almost all of VT is obscenely overpriced for rich gapers from big ec cities. That's reality.

Skiing has always been expensive, but it's gotten much worse in recent times.

I'm not quite sure snow Ridge is turning a profit after all last I heard they were for sale.  not to mention everyone that goes there seem to have a pass somewhere else and get a $15 ticket.

Petronio wrote

The rise in prices has to be looked at in terms of currency inflation (i.e., how many of yesterday's dollars do I need to buy the same good or services today) as well as any real increase in prices (whether due to additional costs or increased market power of the seller).

  In 1996 a weekend day lift ticket cost $49.  For the current season, a Killington weekend/peak ticket costs $92.  That is almost double in absolute dollars.  But in constant 1996 dollars, it is only about 24% higher.  (Use the US BLS calculator to determine what $92 in 2014 would buy in 1996:

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl)

So current peak prices at Killington are as if they raised the $49 price in 1996 to $61.  A better sense (since we all have a better sense of the dollar value today), if they raised last year's peak daily lift ticket price of $89 to $110 for this season.  


Petronio

Man - I thought you got it, I'm disappointed. The CPI has been manipulated by the government statisticians to make you feel and the politicians look good. The CPI is not a measure of inflation, it is a measure of spending habits. Personally I believe that the cost of energy drives the cost of every thing else and it by itself is a better indicator. The price of gas in 2004 was $1.49, today it is $3.40 and killington lift prices went from $59 to $90 - a bargain. Killington is not a good comparison though because they are struggling, skier visits off by more than 30% since 2001 so they are slashing prices and hoping to make up for it else where in the operation.

And yes - the low wage service class employees are getting a raw deal. The low end of the middle class is getting a raw deal. Pretty soon most people won't be able to retire and we will go back to a time where higher education was reserved for only those who can afford it and opportunities will be extremely limited. Maybe not slaves, but indentured servants.

If you don't believe it can happen, study history - particularly the era around 1900. Statistically speaking, the gaps are even greater now and the only reason there are not more people in the street is that we are propping the bottom up with accumulating national debt, but that is quickly going away. We are in for a rough ride.

That last link was spot on, except it is not the top 0.1% it's the top 0.01% that are pulling the strings.

Not all places are failing that aren't upscale large resorts.  Mount Peter caters mostly to beginners as shown by their free beginner lessons that are offered every weekend and holiday at 10, 12, and 2, for skiing and 11, and 1 for snowboarding.  I believe that is an industry exclusive.  They do well because they know their place in the industry and the purpose they serve which is to be an easy and cheap way to get into skiing/riding.  I learned to snowboard there back in 2011 and I am pretty good at it now, so they must have done something right (I learned to ski in 2004 at Hidden Valley because my dad didn't know about Mount Peter yet).  I have done a lot of skiing there and I even wrote their profile for the blog.  I have pretty much outgrown the place and do most if not all of my local skiing and riding at Mountain Creek now.  However, I still think that they do a great business and are a very important part of the industry.  Also, unlike most small places, they have modern snowmaking and grooming equipment and got a refurbished lift back in 2006.  They have the capability to cover the ENTIRE MOUNTAIN in just 36 hours of optimal temperatures.  I don't think that any mountain, even Hunter can say that.  You can ski there at night during the week for I think like just 20 dollars, so it is cheap too.  Not very big, but they sell some of the cheapest tickets out there which is perfect for someone trying out the sport.  If all the smaller places were run like they are, I bet more would be open and not in bankruptcy.

There's always cheap tickets to be had. Went up to Hickory today with a few friends $12 each in gas a little enlightening work and I've got a ticket.  I'll do the same thing at platty. I'll get 2 fox 40 passes for $260 that's 20 more tickets. Buy one get one tickets for early killington. I'll check out the new Warren miller film that will get me 4 more tickets for $18 I might buy a second ticket for that so I can get 8 for $36. I work 3 jobs may thru Oct so I can play hard in winter. Winter I just go down to one job at my local hill so the wife and kids all get free passes. I'm by no means rich, I'll have no problem putting in 80+ days. Thankfully I get sick/personal/vacation days and a super cool wife who understands my passion.  I'll run down every storm. My biggest ski season expense is always gas. Don't be afraid to hop in your truck after work drive 6 hours after 3 feet ski 8 hours drive home and work the next day :) it's all about priorities.  

where's the snow wrote

Went up to Hickory today with a few friends $12 each in gas a little enlightening work and I've got a ticket.  I'll do the same thing at platty.

Stay tuned for Platty details VERY soon.

I'm the same as WTS in that I spend more on gas than I do on lift tickets. I bet many of us do. If I ski Gore/Whiteface/Bell 20x a year my ticket cost is ~$40. So maybe gas is even on a two ski day trip to Gore. If you count CAR (not just gas, but oil, tires, wear) it's not even close. Day tripping Platty, fugetaboutit.

I think my lower income statement still basically holds. If you are working three jobs I bet you aren't in the lower 1/3 of household incomes.

In the bigger picture, this thread for the most part is not addressing the issue CAN you ski for cheap, but WHY are lift ticket rack rates "high."  (I'm not sure they are high... or compared to what?)

My point is that if everyone was skiing as cheaply as WTS, or many of us, IMO the ski business would be very different.

Petronio wrote

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

You know I basically knew ^^this was true, but reading it, seeing it stated, so clearly and coherently, was very sobering.

Glade Runner wrote

I'm not quite sure snow Ridge is turning a profit after all last I heard they were for sale.  not to mention everyone that goes there seem to have a pass somewhere else and get a $15 ticket.

Just because they're for sale doesn't mean it's failing. They don't have to blow much of anything when it comes to snow. It's old school. You ski when there's snow. In new england, a long time ago it used to be when the ground was brown you didn't ski. That's not really an issue though at snow ridge. That place gets blasted with so much snow that they need little snow making. Snow making costs a fortune. What 30k for one gun? Then hundreds of thousands per year spent on labor/power ect. Then you're talking about resorts that are relatively huge having to cover 100% of their terrain with snowmaking. This expectation along with fancy condo's and everything else is a certain rich market they're catering to.

You can't operate a ski area in southern new England without snow making. A place like wachusett wouldn't exist. They make a fortune though even though they charge 269 mid week pass/550 anytime. It's a daytime operation near boston. Local hills without lodges/resort/village/condo build out ect are usually cheaper to ski at. Supporting that infrastructure/investment means they want more profits and higher lift tickets. Hell yawgoo valley, which has a horrific climate and is totally snow gun reliant only charges around 350 for a season pass. They don't have that much terrain to blow snow on and no competition and it's a locals hill. One of the the best deals in southern new england is Ski butternut charges 300 season pass for 1000 foot vertical and 25/midweek ticket is totally snow gun reliant. They make a healthy profit. Places like that are a dying breed. Catamount is now getting condos. That says it right there. Get ready for 100% groomed even on pow days jiminy peak south.

All i remember the ticket lady at snow ridge saying does everyone have a season pass and that every ticket sold was a $15 discount ticket.  I think it is a pretty sweet deal but if everyone is getting it paying 15 bucks for 4 ft of fresh when they could charge full price and they will pay it for that premium snow day then thats a bad business move.  Even plattekill wouldnt accept buy one get one coupons on a powder day.  But i had no problem forking over the full price for that premium powder day.

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Harvey wrote

Petronio wrote

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/investment_manager.html

You know I basically knew ^^this was true, but reading it, seeing it stated, so clearly and coherently, was very sobering.

Yes - I am glad to see articles starting to pop up that don't look like conspiracy theory.
I don't know if you watched any of the PBS series on the Roosevelt's, TR was a anomaly, getting into office on the death of McKinley  and then taking on the Trusts. Unfortunately, with international banking and the mobility of assets, this doesn't work anymore. In 1900 the rail roads, coal, timber and oil couldn't move their operations or assets to the Cayman Islands or move production to China or India. Now the holders of the assets only have to threaten to pull out if our government doesn't knuckle under - it doesn't matter whether it's democratic or republican, they don't care. Even if we the people make a change in government, could we take the pain when the money leaves? My generation and the preceding generation sold our control for instant gratification. I stopped looking at people who are at the bottom of the economic food chain abd saying - "get a job"  after I worked with single mothers working two jobs and loosing ground, no cable, no iPhone, no retirement and a 15+ YO car. Most people on this web site don't have a fucking clue what is going on, they refuse to look around them because they don't want to see it, people at the bottom 50% aren't even thinking about skiing, they are thinking about eating, how to pay the doctor and finding money to buy gas for the car. Oh - and our government says they are above the poverty line...

Glade Runner wrote

All i remember the ticket lady at snow ridge saying does everyone have a season pass and that every ticket sold was a $15 discount ticket.  I think it is a pretty sweet deal but if everyone is getting it paying 15 bucks for 4 ft of fresh when they could charge full price and they will pay it for that premium snow day then thats a bad business move.  Even plattekill wouldnt accept buy one get one coupons on a powder day.  But i had no problem forking over the full price for that premium powder day.

If you are there mid week, you can get a lift ticket for 18 bucks I think. That's without any discount. This is in an area with little amount of people as well. Just goes to show you what a ski area can do and still make a profit when they keep it basic and get a lot of natural snow. Snow ridge has been around for a LONG time. Also, many of those ski areas shut down in nelsa due to bad management, relying on natural snow in southern new england and therefore getting killed some years due to lack of snowfall, and of course lawsuits. 90%+ of new restaurants fold so I think ski areas actually have a better track record.

PowderAssassin wrote

Glade Runner wrote

All i remember the ticket lady at snow ridge saying does everyone have a season pass and that every ticket sold was a $15 discount ticket.  I think it is a pretty sweet deal but if everyone is getting it paying 15 bucks for 4 ft of fresh when they could charge full price and they will pay it for that premium snow day then thats a bad business move.  Even plattekill wouldnt accept buy one get one coupons on a powder day.  But i had no problem forking over the full price for that premium powder day.

If you are there mid week, you can get a lift ticket for 18 bucks I think. That's without any discount. This is in an area with little amount of people as well. Just goes to show you what a ski area can do and still make a profit when they keep it basic and get a lot of natural snow. Snow ridge has been around for a LONG time. Also, many of those ski areas shut down in nelsa due to bad management, relying on natural snow in southern new england and therefore getting killed some years due to lack of snowfall, and of course lawsuits. 90%+ of new restaurants fold so I think ski areas actually have a better track record.

I don't know how you can say whether they do or don't make a profit being privately owned.  But this is the listing so I'd guess if it is for sale it isn't some majorly profitable ski center.  The regular price of $33-$39 there is reasonable I just think 15 or 18 is way too cheap to think you are going to turn some real profit.  For that price why offer an even cheaper discount?  I don't see that deal on their site now but, I also don't recall seeing it there before I went last year.  I was surprised when I got there and got a discounted ticket for having a Greek pass.
http://www.huntcommercial.com/property/detail.php?id=55434

Glade Runner wrote

I don't know how you can say whether they do or don't make a profit being privately owned.  But this is the listing so I'd guess if it is for sale it isn't some majorly profitable ski center.  The regular price of $33-$39 there is reasonable I just think 15 or 18 is way too cheap to think you are going to turn some real profit.  For that price why offer an even cheaper discount?  I don't see that deal on their site now but, I also don't recall seeing it there before I went last year.  I was surprised when I got there and got a discounted ticket for having a Greek pass.
http://www.huntcommercial.com/property/detail.php?id=55434

Because businesses generally don't stay open for decades when they're not making a profit. Do I know if they made a profit last year? No of course not.

 I think 18 for a midweek lift ticket is completely reasonable. It's only 500 vertical feet. All natural snow so MUCH cheaper to run than farther south where it can make up a huge portion of the costs of running the mountain. We've just grown accustomed to being price raped by big business ski areas so 18 seems dirt cheap. I do agree that they should not discount people for having a pass elsewhere.

snoloco wrote

Mountain Creek charges 350 for a full season pass...

Drink!!!

snoloco wrote

(Mount Peter:) They do well because they know their place in the industry and the purpose they serve which is to be an easy and cheap way to get into skiing/riding.

True.

One other factor: How many (millions) live within 20 miles.

If Mt Peter was in my neighborhood, I'd ski there every weekend when I wasn't driving north. Beats the hell out of taking the kids roller skating.  I'd probably buy a pass.

In skiing DISTANCE is 50% of the game.

Harvey wrote

In skiing DISTANCE is 50% of the game.

Yep. Big time.